When Is An Experienced Fisherman...a Smart Fisherman?

[Guest Sundancefisher]

I heard complaints yesterday about a guy fly fishing and he caught a 9 lb rainbow. He fought it to exhaustion and then pulled it up onto the rocky shore. Then took forever to get the hook out. Then went to take pictures but the camera was not ready...then before the pictures took time to scrap all the rocks and sand off the trout...then took some pictures and then just let the trout go after being out of the water for a long...long time! The trout went belly up. Someone said something to him and the guy poked at the fish as it was drifting away and the trout turned over and slowly swam down. :$*%&: :$*%&: :$*%&:

 

Now from experience these big trout when released like that...drift to the bottom...roll over and die due to lactic acid build up.

 

In the conversation between the two the guy said not to worry as he was an experienced angler.

 

This is not what an experienced angler should be doing and I shutter to think what he is teaching others and what worse catch and release techniques there could be. IMHO there is not much difference between his technique and the technique of hitting it on the head and tossing it back.

 

My frustration on this stems from the fact these fish cost $50 to stock...we are trying to manage for a quality fishery...there are limited fish and they are getting caught repeatedly so killing one does a huge disservice to other fishermen as these big dead fish are a waste on the bottom of the lake.

 

I wrote this article for our website on catch and release...I hope this guy reads this post and then reads the article and then changes his ways.

 

http://www.lakesundance.org/PDFs/Catch&amp...easeMethods.pdf

 

Just a few of the problems in his method:

 

1. Playing the fish to exhaustion (lactic acid build up alone can kill the fish)

 

2. Pulling the trout onto the rocks...removes the protective slim layer which prevents infection

 

3. Keeping the fish out of the water for more than 30 seconds...brain damage has occurred and gettign worse

 

4. Tossing the trout back without due care and attention in revival.

 

5. Other fishermen are watching and thinking this guy is smart...

 

Sigh...

 

Sun

 

 

[canadensis]

My frustration on this stems from the fact these fish cost $50 to stock...we are trying to manage for a quality fishery...there are limited fish and they are getting caught repeatedly so killing one does a huge disservice to other fishermen as these big dead fish are a waste on the bottom of the lake.

 

It is a community put and take fishery; whatcha expect?

 

Oh and aren't guys allowed to club'em anyways? Is there any size restriction to what a fellow can keep? are they allowed to keep the $50 fish?

 

I do agree your example exemplifies poor handling, go to any other public body of water and it is the same.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

It is a community put and take fishery; whatcha expect?

 

Oh and aren't guys allowed to club'em anyways? Is there any size restriction to what a fellow can keep? are they allowed to keep the $50 fish?

 

I do agree your example exemplifies poor handling, go to any other public body of water and it is the same.

 

As a community we are asking people to put back the big trout. We have 99% voluntary compliance on that as once someone catches a monster on a spinning or fly rod...they want MORE of the same :-).

 

As for your first sentence...I would expect anyone calling themselves experienced to at least show some respect to proper catch and release techniques.

 

What is the most sad is how can we expect any catch and release regs to work in public waters if people don't respect their fish at home?

 

Sorry...I know to most this seems like a rant...which it is certainly but also I hope that some people will read the catch and release article and say honestly to themselves...

 

1) I do this all already.

 

2) I could do a few points better

 

3) Man I suck and need to start doing these things.

 

Then hopefully we can save a few fish that were intended to be released and caught again.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[McLeod]

As a community we are asking people to put back the big trout. We have 99% voluntary compliance on that as once someone catches a monster on a spinning or fly rod...they want MORE of the same :-).

 

As for your first sentence...I would expect anyone calling themselves experienced to at least show some respect to proper catch and release techniques.

 

What is the most sad is how can we expect any catch and release regs to work in public waters if people don't respect their fish at home?

 

Sorry...I know to most this seems like a rant...which it is certainly but also I hope that some people will read the catch and release article and say honestly to themselves...

 

1) I do this all already.

 

2) I could do a few points better

 

3) Man I suck and need to start doing these things.

 

Then hopefully we can save a few fish that were intended to be released and caught again.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

 

 

If you want the big ones to be released ..Ban bait..

 

[birchy]

If you want the big ones to be released ..Ban bait..

 

Why? He said the guy was fly fishing. It has nothing to do with the method..

[flyfishfairwx]

 

This fly fisher is proof that fools fly fish.

 

He is neither Smart nor Experienced!

 

His only experience is self-indulgence and self-gratification, it is all about him, he cares not about the resource or others..

 

This has pissed me off to no end and I do not even live there or have a chance of fishing there..

 

Solution provided -

 

Mandatory all fishermen/women watch this, then expulsion if not followed..

 

 

 

 

[CTownTBoyz]

Although this individual’s behavior is less than acceptable, the whole story seems slightly exaggerated (which by the way, considering the source, doesn't surprise me or likely anyone else).

 

Sundancefisher wrote:

“ My frustration on this stems from the fact these fish cost $50 to stock...we are trying to manage for a quality fishery...there are limited fish and they are getting caught repeatedly so killing one does a huge disservice to other fishermen as these big dead fish are a waste on the bottom of the lake.”

 

You and your friends may be managing the Lake as a ‘quality fishery’ but there is nothing in the Lake Sundance rules that indicates this as an official policy. Large fish caught repeatedly will eventually die (probably a lot sooner than you think) - as someone trained in Science, you should know that. You should also they’re “not a waste on the bottom of the lake”, or for that matter - in my freezer.

 

I fish Lake Sundance occasionally and I keep my limit (1) every time. That said, I wouldn't keep a 9lb. 'grown in a hatchery' worn out rainbow.

 

Thing is, the fish in these "put and take" fisheries really aren't all that special. The big ones are more often than not spent hatchery breeders, hence the often unmistakable worn out tails (not always but often).

 

People should release fish properly, but no matter what apparently happened that day - it didn't occur on the Bow or any other public fishery.

 

T

 

 

 

[monger]

The big fish in Sundance are not old brood stock. True, they are not perfect specimens (broomed tails), but they were released as 4 year olds. These big fish are triploids and thus may live another 5 years if handled well. It is nice to catch big, chrome fish in the early spring instead of black, old boots with a big red stripe. Some people never leave the city to experience other fishing and it appears Sundancefisher hopes more kids and their parents will get the chance to catch a huge fish. Perhaps this forum is not the place to put a rant about a private lake, but what can it hurt.

 

If someone catches a 10lb stocked triploid in a lake near Kamloops it is a trophy. The fish has grown up there for a number of years from 5 inches.

Here's a question...How many years does one of these big Sundance fish have to stay alive in their city lake to gain some respect and have similar value as a stocked Kamloops lake fish? Will that preception ever change or are they always just big stockers?

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Although this individual’s behavior is less than acceptable, the whole story seems slightly exaggerated (which by the way, considering the source, doesn't surprise me or likely anyone else).

 

Sundancefisher wrote:

“ My frustration on this stems from the fact these fish cost $50 to stock...we are trying to manage for a quality fishery...there are limited fish and they are getting caught repeatedly so killing one does a huge disservice to other fishermen as these big dead fish are a waste on the bottom of the lake.”

 

You and your friends may be managing the Lake as a ‘quality fishery’ but there is nothing in the Lake Sundance rules that indicates this as an official policy. Large fish caught repeatedly will eventually die (probably a lot sooner than you think) - as someone trained in Science, you should know that. You should also they’re “not a waste on the bottom of the lake”, or for that matter - in my freezer.

 

I fish Lake Sundance occasionally and I keep my limit (1) every time. That said, I wouldn't keep a 9lb. 'grown in a hatchery' worn out rainbow.

 

Thing is, the fish in these "put and take" fisheries really aren't all that special. The big ones are more often than not spent hatchery breeders, hence the often unmistakable worn out tails (not always but often).

 

People should release fish properly, but no matter what apparently happened that day - it didn't occur on the Bow or any other public fishery.

 

T

 

We should meet at the lake and we can discuss the pros and cons of trying to manage our lake to be the best recreational fishery we can muster. The flip side is stock it with 10 inchers and go at it or jack the limits and have all the fish gone in 60 seconds. This past year people have clearly been impressed with the fishery as noticed by some Lake Mackenzie, Lake Chapparal and Lake Midnapore people fishing here.

 

There is more to a put and take fishery than just taking a limit. To assume the majority of fishermen want to stock their freezer does not prove evident when I see how many people are fishing last year and this year. In one respect we are a victim of our own success as the lake management has improved fishing and as a result more people are fishing.

 

As we have a limited budget for stocking there is a balance between stocking rates and harvest rates and that is hard to explain with the exception that lake like Chaparral and Arbour have probably fished most of their fish out whereas our catch and release folks and lower limits have not only lengthened our fishing season but also the larger fish has in effect created a quality fishery. If we had better control over stocking size we would be in great shape. As is stands now we do have to deal with hatcheries that can have their share of inventory problems as weather and fish kills do take their toll. So far now we have to try and manage getting trout big enough to survive the hunting loons. Big enough to compete aggressively with schools of perch for food. Big enough that people actually enjoy the activity and the fight...yet provide enough trout that they are not gone in 60 seconds, and enough trout so that people can take some home to eat. I personally don't believe the residents should be paying fees to support a few that feel they must stock their freezer (there are some but not many and definitey the exception).

 

I think it is great you enjoy having a feed of trout once in a while. Still you must be kinda hungry to just start off a post insulting me. Send me a PM and we can head out fishing tonight and chat. Much easier to understand everyones point of view versus making assumptions. Maybe I can explain how many volunteer hours I personally spend on helping out and how you can take some of the load off.

 

Also please note that while I as a fisherman is benefiting...I am trying to support improved recreational trout fishing for years to come. Therefore once again I emplore you to be part of the solution and even come out and help net the perch. We will be out next Saturday most likely starting at 10 am. Send the office your email info to get on the list!

 

Cheers

 

S

 

P.S. The big ones are triploids... They are not breeding anytime in this lifetime

[CTownTBoyz]

We should meet at the lake and we can discuss the pros and cons of trying to manage our lake to be the best recreational fishery we can muster. The flip side is stock it with 10 inchers and go at it or jack the limits and have all the fish gone in 60 seconds. This past year people have clearly been impressed with the fishery as noticed by some Lake Mackenzie, Lake Chapparal and Lake Midnapore people fishing here.

 

There is more to a put and take fishery than just taking a limit. To assume the majority of fishermen want to stock their freezer does not prove evident when I see how many people are fishing last year and this year. In one respect we are a victim of our own success as the lake management has improved fishing and as a result more people are fishing.

 

As we have a limited budget for stocking there is a balance between stocking rates and harvest rates and that is hard to explain with the exception that lake like Chaparral and Arbour have probably fished most of their fish out whereas our catch and release folks and lower limits have not only lengthened our fishing season but also the larger fish has in effect created a quality fishery. If we had better control over stocking size we would be in great shape. As is stands now we do have to deal with hatcheries that can have their share of inventory problems as weather and fish kills do take their toll. So far now we have to try and manage getting trout big enough to survive the hunting loons. Big enough to compete aggressively with schools of perch for food. Big enough that people actually enjoy the activity and the fight...yet provide enough trout that they are not gone in 60 seconds, and enough trout so that people can take some home to eat. I personally don't believe the residents should be paying fees to support a few that feel they must stock their freezer (there are some but not many and definitey the exception).

 

I think it is great you enjoy having a feed of trout once in a while. Still you must be kinda hungry to just start off a post insulting me. Send me a PM and we can head out fishing tonight and chat. Much easier to understand everyones point of view versus making assumptions. Maybe I can explain how many volunteer hours I personally spend on helping out and how you can take some of the load off.

 

Also please note that while I as a fisherman is benefiting...I am trying to support improved recreational trout fishing for years to come. Therefore once again I emplore you to be part of the solution and even come out and help net the perch. We will be out next Saturday most likely starting at 10 am. Send the office your email info to get on the list!

 

Cheers

 

S

 

P.S. The big ones are triploids... They are not breeding anytime in this lifetime

 

Spare me your passive aggressivness - you quoted third party information about an individual, and then you go on to assume that everyone who is a member of Lake Sundance wants the same as yourself- not true.

 

Hope you're enjoying this BBT.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Spare me your passive aggressivness - you quoted third party information about an individual, and then you go on to assume that everyone who is a member of Lake Sundance wants the same as yourself- not true.

 

Hope you're enjoying this BBT.

 

Actually. Again... I was being honest about heading out fishing with you. Our debate is pointless if you won't chat. I have talked with probably way, way more fishermen at Lake Sundance than you have assumed. With the exception of needing a higher density to increase catch rates and including some smaller sized fish 1.5 to 3 lbers that people feel happier with taking while leaving the bigger ones to catch I have heard nothing but praise for the fishing in 2009 and into 2010.

 

Again...I would love to hear your input, suggestions, constructive critisizm. If you have a larger group of resident fishermen around that would like to voice their opinion I would happily hear it and report back to the board. Alternatively I would love to have another fisherman with an opinion on the board to take the heat off of me.

 

Again. My offer is genuine. If you wish to meet tonight to either fish or just chat, I can meet you at the front gate. BBT can come and mediate or provide flyfishing instruction. Your choice.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

 

P.S. The third party I am quoting is probably one of the most honest and respected people I know. Not sure how old you are but he has probably logged more fishing time that you and I put together. If he was appalled at the poor catch and release display...it was for good reason. I would never out someone for being such a poor fishing example but I do hope the person reads this and while maybe angry for someone pointing this out...over time hopefully people just think a little better and be a little more respectful of the fishery and the work and effort that goes into managing things like this. If done at the time in a friendly way...peer pressure can also educate in case some people just don't realize trout suffocate out of water.

[Nick0Danger]

If you want to fill your freezer, meet sundancefisher saturday morning and take all the perch you want. And i think they are better than the trout.

[canadensis]

It is astonishing how much air time this private stocked pond gets on this website.

 

 

[ladystrange]

In the conversation between the two the guy said not to worry as he was an experienced angler.

 

I wrote this article for our website on catch and release...I hope this guy reads this post and then reads the article and then changes his ways.

 

 

your first sentance explains why he won't change. if the person is arrogant enough not to understand why someone was point out what a disservice he was doing to the poor fish, he will read the article and think 'yeah... i agree, those darned jerks mishandling fish...' and have no idea that he is one of those people. ignorance and idiocy are difficult to correct with hinting. and if he didnt get it when it was pointed out to him, the light bulb isnt going to come on just becausesome one tried to flick the switch when the brain isnt connected

 

good luck tho

[bhurt]

First and most important "WHAT MAKES A EXPERINCE FISHER"

 

Before you can answer any other question, that one must be answered first.

 

Second, This is just my opion but if there is a catch limit and no size limit then it is simple tuff luck, if 99% of the community is in favour then there shouldn't be a problem with impossing a size limit, and if there is then not as many people share the same opion as yourself.

 

Last I would just like to point out that but does CTownTBoyz sound like Supremeleader, espically the way he made comments to Sundance (who he always debated with) and his poking at BBT (SL absoultly hated BBT) if I am wrong, my bad.

[Enigma]

From my perspective, an experienced angler is a smart angler when s/he realizes that there are almost always improved ways to do things and new skills to learn.

[firefrog]

Hey

I have the definitive solution: hookless fishing. Bragging rights go to those with the highest number of strikes. Cheers.

- Waiting for the moon to turn blue

 

[CTownTBoyz]

If you want to fill your freezer, meet sundancefisher saturday morning and take all the perch you want. And i think they are better than the trout.

 

Perch are good no doubt, however, the idea of filleting dozen's of 'one bites' is not so appealing.....

 

 

 

 

 

[Nick0Danger]

we could do a fish in 30 seconds, it truly worth it in my opinion.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

From my perspective, an experienced angler is a smart angler when s/he realizes that there are almost always improved ways to do things and new skills to learn.

 

My feelings is an experienced angler is:

 

Someone who has fished many years, caught many fish and still once in a while releases a fish poorly and feels guilty. If you don't feel guilty either you just don't know what proper catch and release techniques are, you care less and don't respect either the trout or the fishery, or you are plain oblivious. I don't want assume anyone is doing it on purpose so that is not an answer.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[Enigma]

My feelings is an experienced angler is:

 

Someone who has fished many years, caught many fish and still once in a while releases a fish poorly and feels guilty. If you don't feel guilty either you just don't know what proper catch and release techniques are, you care less and don't respect either the trout or the fishery, or you are plain oblivious. I don't want assume anyone is doing it on purpose so that is not an answer.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

 

Good grief you confuse me sometimes! We are not understanding each other here

 

(FYI: I'm DarkAisling).

 

[birchy]

(FYI: I'm DarkAisling).

 

Are you? Or are you a Scottish Gaelic fisherman?

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Good grief you confuse me sometimes! We are not understanding each other here

 

(FYI: I'm DarkAisling).

 

Now you are confusing me.

 

LOL

 

I am just saying sometimes the fish does get away from you before you wanted to let it go. I think a good fisherman will bring the appropriate gear for the job also.

 

It concerns me to see people releasing fish but so poorly and therefore do you politely direct them to information, offer up some advice, scream at them or ignore them.

 

I feel you have to politely help in some manner and hope their ego does not get ruffled. If they are experienced...hopefully they understand fishing is a life long learning process.

[Enigma]

Are you? Or are you a Scottish Gaelic fisherman?

 

I prefer the "neutral" term "angler." I'm pretty impressed that someone took the time to figure out what "Iasgair" (which I can not pronounce) means I wear many hats, and half of them are Gaelic and virtually unpronounceable by English speakers. Sun has taken me fishing, and he knows me from another forum, as well.

 

Now you are confusing me.

 

LOL

 

I am just saying sometimes the fish does get away from you before you wanted to let it go. I think a good fisherman will bring the appropriate gear for the job also.

 

It concerns me to see people releasing fish but so poorly and therefore do you politely direct them to information, offer up some advice, scream at them or ignore them.

 

I feel you have to politely help in some manner and hope their ego does not get ruffled. If they are experienced...hopefully they understand fishing is a life long learning process.

 

I agree with everything you've said there, and that is what I was attempting to convey.

 

It is hard to qualify what constitutes "experienced" however. And, the context it was used in by the gentleman who caught the trout can't be determined by what has been posted. It could be that he's spent a couple years on stocked ponds, in which case he could say he was "experienced." He could have hunted a number of species of fish in a wide variety of settings, which would also constitute "experienced." Experience says nothing about skill level: especially if one has been doing it "wrong" for years.

 

In addition to that (with regards to your previous response to me) I don't think "guilt" has much to do with fishing "experience" or "smarts." I would say that guilt is a complex emotional reaction brought on by doing something that is contrary to one's personal ethics or morality. One's personal ethics and morality are developed and governed by a number of things: many of which I believe are more cultural than anything else.

 

I was raised to eat what I kill. I was faced with a situation this last winter that left me feeling very guilty and conflicted. I gut hooked a pike under legal size, and ripped out an important chunk of its insides when I removed the hook. I did what was legal (and "smart"). I put it back in the water to die, but I felt guilty about it. If I'd taken it home to eat it I wouldn't have felt guilty, but I would have been guilty of poaching. Emotions (especially "guilt" and "shame") are far too dangerous to rely on for guidance.

 

Maybe you could make a fish handling workshop available to the Sundance residents? Some literature that could be handed out at the gate might be a good idea too. While there would certainly be some people who felt they didn't need it, hopefully enough people would implement the techniques that the culture would slowly change.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

I prefer the "neutral" term "angler." I'm pretty impressed that someone took the time to figure out what "Iasgair" (which I can not pronounce) means I wear many hats, and half of them are Gaelic and virtually unpronounceable by English speakers. Sun has taken me fishing, and he knows me from another forum, as well.

 

 

 

I agree with everything you've said there, and that is what I was attempting to convey.

 

It is hard to qualify what constitutes "experienced" however. And, the context it was used in by the gentleman who caught the trout can't be determined by what has been posted. It could be that he's spent a couple years on stocked ponds, in which case he could say he was "experienced." He could have hunted a number of species of fish in a wide variety of settings, which would also constitute "experienced." Experience says nothing about skill level: especially if one has been doing it "wrong" for years.

 

In addition to that (with regards to your previous response to me) I don't think "guilt" has much to do with fishing "experience" or "smarts." I would say that guilt is a complex emotional reaction brought on by doing something that is contrary to one's personal ethics or morality. One's personal ethics and morality are developed and governed by a number of things: many of which I believe are more cultural than anything else.

 

I was raised to eat what I kill. I was faced with a situation this last winter that left me feeling very guilty and conflicted. I gut hooked a pike under legal size, and ripped out an important chunk of its insides when I removed the hook. I did what was legal (and "smart"). I put it back in the water to die, but I felt guilty about it. If I'd taken it home to eat it I wouldn't have felt guilty, but I would have been guilty of poaching. Emotions (especially "guilt" and "shame") are far too dangerous to rely on for guidance.

 

Maybe you could make a fish handling workshop available to the Sundance residents? Some literature that could be handed out at the gate might be a good idea too. While there would certainly be some people who felt they didn't need it, hopefully enough people would implement the techniques that the culture would slowly change.

 

My only comment about guilt has nothing to do with killing a fish you want to eat...but rather knowing you did something wrong when releasing a fish which could of compromised it's chance of survival. Like feeling guilty for not having a proper net to handle a really large trout you want to release. I see too many people trying to fight a trout hard and then use forceps to take the hook out without touching the trout and then see the trout sink to the bottom belly up. While they think they are smart and correct in releasing...not in this instance.