Fishing In National Parks

[canadensis]

PETA doesn't warrant the bashing it gets on this board. I've seen posts deleted for less.

 

Huh??

 

Pythagoras- below would be a good link for you to investigate and see why PETA gets "bashed" on this and other fishing/outdoor boards

 

http://www.fishinghurts.com/

[PGK]

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[Smitty]

Exactly what in your eyes is going to constitute a ''compelling reason''????? When we're down to the last pair of native athabasca rainbows? When bull trout populations start crashing because the adult female's redds are being parasitized by brook trout and there's massive recruitment failure? What is it going to take?

 

Kris, I don't have an exact answer. But if - and its an if, because I don't see the straight line connecting all the dots from A thru C - closing the Parks to fishing is whats needed to save these species, then I am with Taco; I'll support it and make the sacrifice.

 

I remember reading the "cream in the coffee" comment in Barry Mitchell's book. Come up with a plan! Make some recommendations based on practicality and science and I can be convinced. Otherwise, we all know how very hard it is to eradicate 'invasives'. I am not advocating a "throw my hands up and give up" approach, but lets get creative and do something that has a chance of working.

 

As an example of practicality, contrast lakes versus rivers. I honestly don't see how you can eradicate a species once it "infects" a river system. Again, my point about enlisting the help of anglers. I mean really, just how the heck are you going to remove brookies from the Athabasca watershed?

 

Lakes, on the other hand, can be, especially if the geography/biological characteristics cooperate, somewhat easier. I'm all for the temporary closures for some lakes in some circumstances if the goals are achievable.

 

I'd love to turn the clock back 200 years and get Banff back to the days of common 5lb cutts and 20lb bulls, but I don't see it happening.

 

And I remain skeptical that a mere blanket ban on fishing in the parks is going to assist my federal fisheries biologist trying to do something worthy, but, in many instances, ultimately fruitless. I really don't think this is the best help I could do; now explore a Quirk creek type of approach, and maybe there's something there...

 

I don't consider myself to be an especially selfish angler, but I admit, I do so enjoy my Maligne Lake forays...

 

Smitty

 

 

[PGK]

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[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

are you still trying to tell people how to cook their steaks and screw their wifes? jk i do understand what your talking about. the fish effectivly dont get a break untill winter forces US out of the fishing or they go really deep like bulls, i just dont see how it is at all doable.

 

they could imply something like they have at the Smith D out in the K

[McLeod]

Like I said in PM, I'm not advocating anything. Obviously, closing the park to fishing is not going to make brook trout disappear. That's kind of a side-bar to the discussion I guess. Closing the parks to angling is a first step in creating a refugia for aquatic ecosystems to function properly. Imagine the potential positive impact to the sport fishery if some of the headwater streams were restored to their previous functioning system...higher recruitment up top leads to displacement below...increased fishery recruitment.

My point stands - Parks is mandated to maintain and protect ecological integrity while allowing use. Is the use of the fishery resource justified, or sustainable, in light that it is the only extractive activity allowed in parks, and that it has directly contributed to the destruction of aquatic integrity. I don't think so. Let the rabid anglers fish for whatever their minds can dream up somewhere else.

 

 

You just don't get it. Closing the parks to fishing is not necessary and the suggestion to so is not based on any scientific data but only on ones own personal motives.

First of all while Parks has lost a huge source revenue over the past 2 decades with it's it approach to fisheries management in the parks ,Parks Canada is in no position to kill off the current source of revenue from angling in the parks so it would certianly be a bad choice economically.

 

2. There has been no harvest on Bulls and Cuts in the parks for many years now and populations are probabley at there carrying capacity. The cold mountain waters are not that productive. Stopping fishing will not increase populations because there is no harvest legally.. No fishing allowed does not stop poaching but may in fact increase it.

 

3. When you say Parks is mandated to maintain and protect ecological integrity while allowing use. Is the use of the fishery resource justified, or sustainable, in light that it is the only extractive activity allowed in parks, and that it has directly contributed to the destruction of aquatic integrity

... No one says it has to be extractive.. Catch and release is just fine..

and this crap about destruction of aquatic intergrity... Have you checked out Lake Louise ?

Any idea what happens with the Bow River , what impact do you think all these hotels and golf courses are having on water use and flows ect.

 

4.This parks mandate was dreamed up by left leaning liberals in the late 80's I.e. Sheila Copps.

It does not represent most Canadians and is quite radical in many areas. Yes there are some good points to it but as you can now see the pendulum is swing back towards the center.

[Smitty]

You just don't get it. Closing the parks to fishing is not necessary and the suggestion to so is not based on any scientific data but only on ones own personal motives.

First of all while Parks has lost a huge source revenue over the past 2 decades with it's it approach to fisheries management in the parks ,Parks Canada is in no position to kill off the current source of revenue from angling in the parks so it would certianly be a bad choice economically.

 

2. There has been no harvest on Bulls and Cuts in the parks for many years now and populations are probabley at there carrying capacity. The cold mountain waters are not that productive. Stopping fishing will not increase populations because there is no harvest legally.. No fishing allowed does not stop poaching but may in fact increase it.

 

3. When you say Parks is mandated to maintain and protect ecological integrity while allowing use. Is the use of the fishery resource justified, or sustainable, in light that it is the only extractive activity allowed in parks, and that it has directly contributed to the destruction of aquatic integrity

... No one says it has to be extractive.. Catch and release is just fine..

and this crap about destruction of aquatic intergrity... Have you checked out Lake Louise ?

Any idea what happens with the Bow River , what impact do you think all these hotels and golf courses are having on water use and flows ect.

 

4.This parks mandate was dreamed up by left leaning liberals in the late 80's I.e. Sheila Copps.

It does not represent most Canadians and is quite radical in many areas. Yes there are some good points to it but as you can now see the pendulum is swing back towards the center.

 

x1. Anyways Kris, good of you to approach things like the way you are from a personal standpoint. I really can't add anymore to what I've said either, lest this argument go in so many circles that I'd get dizzy.

 

What I'm happy about is that the discussion was salvaged after things went sideways there for awhile.

 

Smitty

 

[PGK]

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[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

this is retarded, cant you all just agree to disagree.

[McLeod]

And that's your own, slanted, biased, right wing nutjob opinion

 

There is so much wrong with your post I can't even comprehend it.

 

Really... Yes all of us who like to fish in the National Parks are rightwing nutjobs.

You obviously don't like to deal with facts.

 

How about you just don't fish in the Parks in that your against it and problem solved ?

[Smitty]

Guess I spoke to soon...sigh.

 

 

Smitty

[flyfishfairwx]

Guess I spoke to soon...sigh.

 

 

Smitty

 

And to think I had nothing to do with that!!!!!

 

[nebc]

Like I said in PM, I'm not advocating anything. Obviously, closing the park to fishing is not going to make brook trout disappear. That's kind of a side-bar to the discussion I guess. Closing the parks to angling is a first step in creating a refugia for aquatic ecosystems to function properly. Imagine the potential positive impact to the sport fishery if some of the headwater streams were restored to their previous functioning system...higher recruitment up top leads to displacement below...increased fishery recruitment.

My point stands - Parks is mandated to maintain and protect ecological integrity while allowing use. Is the use of the fishery resource justified, or sustainable, in light that it is the only extractive activity allowed in parks, and that it has directly contributed to the destruction of aquatic integrity. I don't think so. Let the rabid anglers fish for whatever their minds can dream up somewhere else.

 

You park planning types are all alike. When the first of the Protected Areas in BC were implemented including taking a huge area out of the Muskwa-Kechika and making a park out of it you wannabe biologists wanted to implement huge areas in the wilderness wherein NOBODY was going to be allowed to be there for any reason. That is Pure unadulterated truth as I was there. And after the fires burned low there was one less planner and we no longer had to worry about BS like this.

 

Ecologically nothing is gained from leaving things to natural forces. Nothing is enjoyed by mandkind so there is no value to such areas either. I cannot beleive the bunk here, and you have even seemed to convince a few who have not enough biological background to know how to question you.

 

Bizarre!

[PGK]

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[canadensis]

I think you started this thread because you like typing the word "refugia"...

 

 

[PGK]

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[nebc]

I am not a ****ing park planner!!!! I am not a peta nutbar, I am not a left wing loonie, I am not working for the government on some top secret plan that's out to get you. Holy *hit. You think you have the biological background to question me? You clearly don't. It's more than evident from the way you pose your rants that you do not have a total grasp of the subject you are talking about.

 

 

 

That is one hell of a contradiction in terms.

 

 

 

Do you even know what this means? Because I don't.

 

 

 

There's a whole lot wrong with use in the M-K as it stands, including illegal OHV use and massive aquatic degradation caused by rednecks in jetboats. The M-K needs boat and motor size restrcitions and some actual policing of OHV use for a starting point. I have seen some unbelieveable *hit up there caused by rednecks with horsepower toys.

 

It makes perfect sense to me that you're affiliated with the GOABC, but I guess that's not the discussion for this board. Suffice to say I haven't met anyone from your organization that had a scrap of respect for natural systems. You're too intent on making money from it all!

 

ACTUAL RESEARCH IN THE MK

 

has shown the use of jet boat traffic in the area has had little or not negative impact.

 

Yet another contradiction of your ideas.

[nebc]

I am not a ****ing park planner!!!! I am not a peta nutbar, I am not a left wing loonie, I am not working for the government on some top secret plan that's out to get you. Holy *hit. You think you have the biological background to question me? You clearly don't. It's more than evident from the way you pose your rants that you do not have a total grasp of the subject you are talking about.

 

 

 

That is one hell of a contradiction in terms.

 

 

 

Do you even know what this means? Because I don't.

 

 

 

There's a whole lot wrong with use in the M-K as it stands, including illegal OHV use and massive aquatic degradation caused by rednecks in jetboats. The M-K needs boat and motor size restrcitions and some actual policing of OHV use for a starting point. I have seen some unbelieveable *hit up there caused by rednecks with horsepower toys.

 

It makes perfect sense to me that you're affiliated with the GOABC, but I guess that's not the discussion for this board. Suffice to say I haven't met anyone from your organization that had a scrap of respect for natural systems. You're too intent on making money from it all!

 

 

This is actually false, not true and Bull.

[trailhead]

Is this post still going? Well with the weather we are having I can see why, and with the climate changed winter we're in for I can see it getting worse. As far as value goes, it is an arbitrary concept that has no meaning to nature, it is manmade. So fishing in National Parks or anywhere for that matter is worth diddly squat to the birds, insects, wild mammals, amphibians, reptiles, fish, single celled organisms and worms. None of them recognize a monetary or reward based system. Everything either is or isn't. IE for bears there either is garbage to eat or isn't. If there is they go and eat it, if there isn't they find another food source. The only value in that is for humans, because the bears are either a nuisance or they are not. As a nuisance they have to be controlled by trapping and relocation. Which costs money, hence has a value. So the only value in fishing is in the enjoyment that humans get out of it, which is why there is a charge for a license and so has a monetary value. As humans can rationalize, there is also an intrinsic value based on the altruistic esperience of fishing, the sky, wind, sound of rushing water etc. It is true that animals also experience these things but they do this in the course of their existence. The primary value a wild organism assigns to anything is based on its survival. A river is water which is for drinking, food is required for sustenance, threats are handled by fight of flight. That's about all the value nature recognizes.

[PGK]

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[PGK]

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[reevesr1]

You've just gone and got yourself worked into a debate you really don't have much grasp on, and you're offended because you think the hippies are out to get you and 'your' fish.

 

Wait a minute. There are hippies coming to get my fish? Those damn hippies, always up to no good. Quick BBT, get the cake. Hippies always like cake and we can distract them before they get our fish.

 

[flyfishfairwx]

Wait a minute. There are hippies coming to get my fish? Those damn hippies, always up to no good. Quick BBT, get the cake. Hippies always like cake and we can distract them before they get our fish.

 

 

WAIT A FIRGGIN WOODSTOCK MINUTE !!!!!!

 

I am a hippie and I do not want your fish..I want my fish... and this is my province and the fish in it are mine!!!!

The good the bad and the ugly ones...Which is why I oppose the killing any one of them, controlling yes, out right killing off no that will not work, any way..

 

I also don't want your silly cake, but and there is always a but, if it has boiled frosting, the cake is mine too, and I can fish and eat cake at the same time!!!!

 

I once caught 7 cutthrout in a stream that was only suppose to have rainbows and Brookies, I caught all seven out from under one little tree stump. I had to hike to find two little brookies, and they were very hard to fool.. so WTH ..

[ÜberFly]

Armed Forces vet = hippy!! I don't think so!! <--poke--< Talk about a contradiction!

 

 

P

 

WAIT A FIRGGIN WOODSTOCK MINUTE !!!!!!

 

I am a hippie and I do not want your fish..I want my fish... and this is my province and the fish in it are mine!!!!

The good the bad and the ugly ones...Which is why I oppose the killing any one of them, controlling yes, out right killing off no that will not work, any way..

 

I also don't want your silly cake, but and there is always a but, if it has boiled frosting, the cake is mine too, and I can fish and eat cake at the same time!!!!

 

I once caught 7 cutthrout in a stream that was only suppose to have rainbows and Brookies, I caught all seven out from under one little tree stump. I had to hike to find two little brookies, and they were very hard to fool.. so WTH ..

[flyfishfairwx]

Armed Forces vet = hippy!! I don't think so!! <--poke--< Talk about a contradiction!

 

 

P

 

ahahah

 

Just a return to my roots so to speak.

 

Remember in the early 80's we had a bit of recession, going on and I knew it was change Tractor Trailer tires in the family business for the rest of my life or get out of dodge (Saint John) , so I join the only crew that was hiring.. and have not worked a day since...hahahahaha J/K

 

Was a long haired skinny kid then and now I am a semi long haired somewhat skinny old *hit, that can blow *hit up and shoot damn straight, literally and figuratively..

 

 

Sitting here having a hot toddy and a laugh..

 

Take care Peter..

 

Have a happy snow day!!!!