Sick Of Seeing Sw Alberta Go To Crap

[danhunt]

Having spent a fair bit of time in the Fallen Timber/Burnt Timber areas I can fully understand the frustration, but it all boils down to policing and enforcement. You can have all the laws you want, but without someone to back them up it don’t mean *hit…

 

Speaking specifically for ATVs, OHVs, Quads, or what ever you want to call them, I don’t support an outright ban because these are crown lands we are talking about, and as far as I’m concerned they are there for your enjoyment as much as mine. Giving preferential access to a special interest group, as they already do with grazing leases, really blows when you are on the side that is excluded, and I think it is completely unjust.

 

I confess I’m ignorant of what the current laws are with regards to the licensing and registration of these vehicles, but I see a simple solution – Require them all to be registered, licensed and insured just like vehicle towing them. That way the police can set up a road block and catch some of the irresponsible ones on the way out to the bush. Those that don’t have their registration, license and insurance face impound charges and a hefty fine to get their machines back just like you do with a car. Those monies collected can help pay for any extra policing costs of setting up those road blocks. Now that we are saying they have to be registered every year, you can levy a special surcharge of say $100 per machine (call it a habitat restoration fund) and you pump those funds back in to the Conservation Officers’ coffers to pay for that aspect of the policing. The frame work is all there, all it would require are some amendments to what is already on the books. Oh yeah, and also the support of the general public because I would be willing to bet that off-roaders represent a larger special interest group than pretty much any other outdoor recreation group, and I’m pretty sure they would be dead set against this. But, if they can’t police themselves then they should pay for the privilege as the rest of us do.

 

[Hawgstoppah]

Depends on who you are looking for. Would I be willing to participate in a group who is trying to come up with a plan to address the issues of over-crowding in the southwest? Yes I would. Would I be interested if the goal of the group is to ban all off road and random camping (not regulate it, but ban it) as well as fishing for 5 yrs? No, I would not. Now if after studying the problem the group decided that the best answer was to ban activity for some set period of time, then fine. But if the stated goal of the group is to ban activity, then not only would I not support it, I think I would oppose it as I don't think it is the solution.

 

rickr (and others)

 

the 5 year ban on fishing etc was MY opinion of what should be done. any special interest group formed to help stop this plague of destruction would be better than none, regardless if our ideas differ on exactly HOW to do it. All I know is that something needs to be done and Im willing to put my heart into doing something... instead of just bitching about it on bulletin boards. The time for us all to act is now. I dont know how we go about it... I aint a politician... Im a simple guy that sees MY right to fish in an unspoiled wilderness being ruined, and along with that I see a huge, HUGE decrease in fish numbers as well.

 

[reevesr1]

Brian,

Then I would help in any way I can. Do I need to be a citizen first??

 

Seriously, I don't have any idea what to do here, but if I can help, I will.

 

[cheeler]

I'd help out as well (seeing that summer can't last forever).

 

Rickr: I hear citizenship is granted automatically if you bathe in maple syrup and manage to hike around the Castle area for 3 days without getting eaten by a grizzly...but those are just rumors.

 

But I think it should be open to anyone who wants to help out.

[cuttbow]

ATV,OHV. Random camping. How bout we change this to the people that are using them. Lots of posts on lack of enforcement bla bla bla. Prov and fed agencies are already partially grounded due to meeting there budget and the years not over yet. You can bitch about F&W or fisheries ,small budgets already surpassed. How can we bitch about enforcement not doing there jobs when there basically grounded from budgets? Look at F&W. fishing ,hunting,atvrs,random campers,Wildlife complaints,Maulings,Bird hunters,Report a poacher and the list goes on.And sorry but these individuals have lives too! Gee 2 or 3 individuals in a area. Sorry but its a big ass area.

Lets go to the random camping issue,Hmmmm wasnt it the govt that strated it in the first place.Privatized the campgrounds to save some bucks.Rates went sky high and thats when random camping started.Ya we all heard the comments of im not paying $25 a night im going to forestry for free. Blame the govt not enforcement. Then if you get down to the nitty gritty, all those big ass trailers and diesel trucks, ATVS. Bring in a hell of a lot more revenue for the govt than flyfishing ever will.GST,ins,reg, Tax on gas,tax on food,tax when you buy a flashlite etc etc.Ya we love the sport and shake our heads and bitch about people wrecking the country. Look at the logging sites on the oldman-livingston. God dam bloody mess. But the govt makes big bucks off of it. Take away the campers and rv users and the govt budget gets cut dramatically. The way i look at it im sick of the posts of overpopulated waters.Gee arent there more fisherman now than there was 5 years ago? We bitch about treble hooks and bait.But we still sell them more tax dollars.We bitch about crowded waters but are the first to post locations and reports. I fished a local lake for 5 years and hardly saw another sole. Big fish lots of fish.Then a big fish was caught and posted on a hell of a lot of forums. I see that lake in a state of collapse now. And tried to do something about it 5 years minimum. We have to have streamwatch auctions to hire somebody to look after the fisheries.Another walkaway from the govt.Ya local fishermen raising funds more tax dollars. We can blab all we want about changes, but unless someone has the money and power to take over the province we are hooped. You give the fishies 10 years i give them 5 If were going to bitch at least have the balls to start something and not depend on other people to do it for us.

[cuttbow]

Then tell Jeff that's what you want. Who knows, you may even get it.

But you're simply preaching to the converted on this board.

Yup, we all agree that quads are evil and random campers are an affront.

Then what??

Like I said, the wheels are turning - ever so slowly.

But it's the government that inevitably makes the call.

Sorry Neil dont speak for me.All quads are evil!!!!! no its the owners. I have quad and i respect the environment and stay awy from waterways. Please dont speak for me or put me in the same catagory as other ATVrs.Posts like this make wheels spin backwards. You think flyfisherman dont own quads or 4x4s and dont cross creeks I know a lot who do.Dont FF have a mortality rate of 10% show me this study.Lack of fish mortality rate hmmmm. How bout we all put down our rods and stop killing fish. Maybe numbers will come back.

[Nick0Danger]

As far as the camping thing is concerned they need many many more campground in alberta. They sell more and more RV's every year and its just the same amount of campgrounds.

[Hawgstoppah]

Point #1.

 

Drive by racehorse + dutch creek campground most of this summer they're nearly empty. Drive 3km up the road and there's 40 or 50 RV's camped within that 3KM. It's not the campgrounds or the capacity of them, though if we can get a random camping ban yes, indeed there would have to be some increased capacity put in.

 

Point #2.

 

If C&R mortality IS having an impact... I agree... we should put down the rods and leave the area alone for 5 years (as my original post stated). I honestly dont think C&R mort is having a huge impact. Creeks with no one around for miles now, have no fish. Even little know less pressured streams anywhere in the catsle / oldman drainage are suffering, from lack of suitable spawning habitat. Go have a look 2km east of the FTR on hwy 532 (towards bear pond and the pass). See that meadow? Ruined. Used to be important spawning grounds for L River cutts.

[cuttbow]

Yip and who do we blame random campers? Whanna random camp yearly access fee of $50 sticker in the windshield.Does anybody know how many random campers there are in alberta? maybe i can get a big grant to study this.And retire.

[cuttbow]

Point #1.

 

Drive by racehorse + dutch creek campground most of this summer they're nearly empty. Drive 3km up the road and there's 40 or 50 RV's camped within that 3KM. It's not the campgrounds or the capacity of them, though if we can get a random camping ban yes, indeed there would have to be some increased capacity put in.

 

Point #2.

 

If C&R mortality IS having an impact... I agree... we should put down the rods and leave the area alone for 5 years (as my original post stated). I honestly dont think C&R mort is having a huge impact. Creeks with no one around for miles now, have no fish. Even little know less pressured streams anywhere in the catsle / oldman drainage are suffering, from lack of suitable spawning habitat. Go have a look 2km east of the FTR on hwy 532 (towards bear pond and the pass). See that meadow? Ruined. Used to be important spawning grounds for L River cutts.

Point #1 ban camping.

Wont work to much money being raked in by the govt. Yearly access fee ya. grab some bucks join the step program and hire people to enforce it for a few months. How many posts have i seen on atvrs not wearing helmets. Its not the law. Motorcycle and bicycle only.How many posts on random campers staying all summer. There is no law only a recomendation of 14 days to allow habitat to rehabilitate. Can i keep 2 fish for the frying pan yes i can. Regs state it.

 

[cuttbow]

Point #1.

 

Drive by racehorse + dutch creek campground most of this summer they're nearly empty. Drive 3km up the road and there's 40 or 50 RV's camped within that 3KM. It's not the campgrounds or the capacity of them, though if we can get a random camping ban yes, indeed there would have to be some increased capacity put in.

 

Point #2.

 

If C&R mortality IS having an impact... I agree... we should put down the rods and leave the area alone for 5 years (as my original post stated). I honestly dont think C&R mort is having a huge impact. Creeks with no one around for miles now, have no fish. Even little know less pressured streams anywhere in the catsle / oldman drainage are suffering, from lack of suitable spawning habitat. Go have a look 2km east of the FTR on hwy 532 (towards bear pond and the pass). See that meadow? Ruined. Used to be important spawning grounds for L River cutts.

Where do you find the creeks with no one for miles ? All the reports i see are way overcrowded. If no one is around for miles maybe its an environmental issue not a recreational use issue.Of course controlled by the govt.One post says have you seen the destuction of random campers and ATVs and the next says creeks with no one around which have no fish. Cant blame random campers and quads if none is around for miles. Hell how many years ago was the livingston put on catch and release. I think there are fewer fish now than when they had whack and stack. Cant blame fishing there are regulations.

 

[Hawgstoppah]

Where do you find the creeks with no one for miles ? All the reports i see are way overcrowded. If no one is around for miles maybe its an environmental issue not a recreational use issue.Of course controlled by the govt.One post says have you seen the destuction of random campers and ATVs and the next says creeks with no one around which have no fish. Cant blame random campers and quads if none is around for miles. Hell how many years ago was the livingston put on catch and release. I think there are fewer fish now than when they had whack and stack. Cant blame fishing there are regulations.

 

your not understanding the big picture cuttbow. even fishing with no one around THERE ARE NO FISH. ATV's are ruining the SPAWNING GROUNDS for the ENTIRE system! no spawn = no fish no matter where you are in relation to people, that's the MOST concerning issue here!

 

[Taco]

forget it, reply deleted

[cuttbow]

your not understanding the big picture cuttbow. even fishing with no one around THERE ARE NO FISH. ATV's are ruining the SPAWNING GROUNDS for the ENTIRE system! no spawn = no fish no matter where you are in relation to people, that's the MOST concerning issue here!

Yip i see the big pic.ATV bullshit.Trailers with greywater lines running to the creeks. My 4x4 fording creeks,Dam the road went through it. I make more damage with the mudders on my 4x4 than my ATV ever did. Lets ban 4x4 too.Lets ban lead on all our flies too have you looked up the latest mercury readings on foothills streams.How come i keep finding barbed hooks after all these years?OH ya the rapalas i found 3 weeks ago with 5 trebles on it. Illegal but we still sell them. Govt must have made what?2$of that lure.Show me proof that ATVs are ruining spawning grounds!!!!Calgary pumps more *hit into the river each year than albertas ATVs do dont the fish still run up the highwood.Oh and i hear the bows getting better number of big browns aside from the increased number of jet boats.I have found fish sizes to be increased and better numbers this year of course i dont post pics or locations. Maybe you just havnt found the right fly.Gee maybe global warming has something to do with it. Maybe using my ATV to get away to remote places has something to do with it.

 

[Neil Waugh]

By my count there are 19 Alberta Fish and Game Association clubs and affiliates spread over 4 zones in the Eastern Slopes area which each year pass resolutions at convention and receives a report back from the appropriate ministries, eight Trout Unlimited Canada chapters, Alberta Streamwatch which made a compelling presentation to a government standing policy committee a few years back on (you guessed it) quads and random campers damaging trout streams, the Minister's Fisheries Advisory Roundtable (where never a meeting goes by when quads don't come up), the Alberta Off Highway Vehicles Association which is lobbying hard for "designated" trails, the Land Use Framework where the south west is on the priority list to get zoning controls in place, the Alberta Wilderness Association, Sierra Club Canada and the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society who all have their anti-quad/access agendas, the Alberta Outdoor Coalition which is an umbrella group for all the consumptive wildlands users, plus an MLA committee studying trails and access controls (which this thread has so far pretended doesn't exist) and yet someone wants to form yet another group to do - well I'm no sure what.

But it appears to be over and above everything else that's already in place and being done.

What part of Cloudcookooland do you people live on? And what makes you think you're going to be heard if you don't even know who you're supposed to talk to?

And why do you think there's a compelling need for yet another outfit when there appears to be dozens already working on the issues? Including the provincial government itself on two fronts which has already received numerous presentations on OHV/Eastern Slopes access.

And before anyone starts badmouthing AFGA remember all Fish and Game trust lands are strictly "foot access only." They don't want quads messing up their landscape either. I guess another voice won't hurt.

But aren't you getting to the dance a little late?

 

 

 

 

[Neil Waugh]

And if that ain't enough, how about the Oldman, Bow, Red Deer, North Saskatchewan, Athabasca and Mackenzie Watershed Planning and Advisory Councils that are required legislatively under the Water for Life Strategy. They're surely also deeply concerned about water quality being jeopardized in the Eastern Slopes tribs by quads and random campers.

Like I said above, we've already got a pile of groups watching our backs already.

In fact about the only outfit that appears not to have taken a position on quads is the Alberta Fishing Guides Association - if that even exists anymore.

[Suntoucher]

I've been working behind the scenes independently for some time now. I spend a lot of time out in the FTR(rocky/nordegg area) documenting and maintaining trouble areas in sensitive watersheds. Too many people are just takers and not enough givers to this resource. Sometimes you can't depend on others and just need to get off your asses and make a difference yourselves...

 

Anyone who needs to be enlightened to what's going on, give me a weekend of your time.

 

 

 

[firefrog]

Hello

A few thoughts. Who remembers when the operation of the campgrounds was contracted out and camping fees were introduced? Many were screaming that this would happen. Well, guess what. Would going back to free campgrounds (and more of them) help things any? It would be more expensive, but dealing with the present mess is too. The government has made our health premiums free, so why not camping?

Not too sure that closing an area would help without a lot more enforcement. Whitegoat and Siffleur are examples where there are infractions and they get away with it.

So, discussion is good and the information is valuable. There's something we can from our computers.

 

Ted Morton is the minister of Sustainable Resources Development

http://www.assembly.ab.ca/net/index.aspx?p...&rnumber=53

 

Cindy Ady is the minister of Tourism, Parks, and Recreation

http://www.cindyady.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=64

 

Yes, they have heard all this bitching before. That's no reason to let up. How long does a squeeky wheel scream before it's fixed? I don't know. Let's find out!

I have contacted them and let them know about our forum and discussions. Please do the same with your suggestions.

Cheers

 

[Harps]

I posted this before...

 

In the Oldman send complaints need to go to the Oldman Watershed Council, as well as the local MPs and MLAs, plus the ministers. For all the talk and all the crowding there aren't letters going up.

The letters need to be coherent and to the point. State a problem you see, then ask how the government is fixing it or offer suggestions. If you offer suggestions request a reason why those suggestions aren't in place.

Copy the letters to all, but specifically adress certain people or departments if you want a response... they will pass the buck if they can.

 

Also mention that angling has a sustainable benefit to the economy, while a ruined landscape is not used. Also by reducing random camping, you bring dollars to communities with lodging and restaurants.

 

The groups are fine, but lots of individual voices are needed too.

 

Local

MD of:

Pincher Creek

Crowsnest Pass

Ranchland

Foothills

 

Oldman Watershed Council

 

MLAs

Look at the Electoral Maps to see the relevent MLAs, and make sure you address them specifically regarding questions on local economy and how regulations including fines and increased use of community lodging could help the riding (most ATV users in the Crowsnest do not reside there).

 

Provincial

SRD-Minister Ted Morton

(Ask about foresty, land use, and fish and wildlife)

 

Alberta Environment (Water Protection- including water taking at camps and all crossings and works on the water)

Minister Rob Renner

 

Tourism, Parks, and Recreation

Minister Cindy Ady

 

Federal

Fisheries and Oceans

Minister Gail Shea

(Ask about habitat protection, monitoring of works, pollution caused by quads, killing fish in redds, and protection to COSEWIC listed Westslope Cutthroat.

 

Environment Canada

Minister Jim Prentice (from Calgary guys).

Ask about pollution from quads, RVs, Migratory bird protection, and wildlife at risk.

 

Other concerns should be forwarded to Trout Unlimited, Ecojustice, the F&G, the ACA, etc to make those groups aware that more anglers have concerns.

 

Plus while you are out, don't forget these numbers:

Report A Poacher

1-800-642-3800

#3800 (on Telus Mobility)

 

Environmental Hotline

(Call in all complaints- quads in stream, bad roads causing dirt, RV's taking water or dumping waste, littering, etc)

1-800-222-6514

 

 

No excuses now, I want to see complaints and responses posted here. As a group, we can help with follow up quetsions too.

[Hawgstoppah]

Thanks Harps. My letter writing starts now. Should have started this years + years ago (on my part). I guess I just didn't see the complete desturction going on till I woke up this year. It's ten times worse than just 2 yrs ago.

[cheeler]

Great info Paul; when I get out this weekend I'll find time to take a few pics if I can find a good example of the land being misused.

[Harps]

Morons in alberta seem to be well represented in all parts of the province

Except for Lethbridge... All gentlemen and fine ladies here!

[flyfishfairwx]

Except for Lethbridge... All gentlemen and fine ladies here!

 

Amen +1

 

LA SWAB is the best !!!

 

 

[bhurt]

Except for Lethbridge... All gentlemen and fine ladies here!

Highly doubtful ever seen some of the people that come out of Taber, Coaldale, Purple Springs, Grassy Lake, Burdet, Bow Island....

 

Hey wait I have family that lives in all of those towns.

[Guest girlsfishtoo]

Thanks Harps, firefrog and any others that posted contact info and anyone that is going to write letters. I will be writing a letter. The more people that pass along their complaints the better!!