Spey Nymphing

[maxwell]

that is cool! gotta give that a go!

[SilverDoctor]

I am Silver Doctor and I am an addict.

 

Yep, I'm one of those warped ones also. Love the spey and fish with indicators a lot but also swing nymphs and streamers. Also skidding stones in the fall and having fun late summer evenings with small mouse imitations (shuuu). I use the airflow ridge line in #30 as I like the larger diameter feel. as for lines Rio Windcutters, and Skaget's for large streamers and winds. Started using the Vision Ace 7/8 which I really love, Its a bullet with great control.

 

The thing I really like with an indicator is the looooooong drift. With an indicator being able to reach out there. With the reach you can fish from a distance without spooking trout. Close in you just use High sticking and the indi never touches the water. The two handed indicator system allows precise depth control at a distance. The Spey also allows more control when fighting large trout (20+).

 

I use the Deer Creek and had but sold the TFO Spey rod that was a good solid rod but I have since sold it to fund another rod. Slowly finishing up a custom

S2H126456 Highlander ~ 12'6" ~ 4 pc ~ 4/6 wt. from Bob Meiser that should be ready late winter early spring depending on my schedule.

[alhuger]

It's a topic that's only spoken of in whispers and most people who do it will deny it. If you're opposed to it don't read any more, close your eyes, hit the back button on your browser, and just pretend you never saw this topic because I don't feel like debating it. I know there are people out there using their spey rods with an indy for dead drifting nymphs at this time of year. So my question is, what kind of setup are you using for it? Line type, leader lengths, which casts work best, etc.?

 

Amen to not buckling to custom or 'tradition', that way lies the short road to boredom. I fish a Deer Creek 5/6 12.6 footer with SA floating mono .20 shooting line and a 420 grain compact skagit (23 feet) with 10 feet of 1X leader to a swivel and then my flies from there. For swinging streamers (which I tend to do more of and catch less fish on..) my setup is similar but I sub 15 to 10 feet of various sinktips and match my leader to work with sink tip length. Oh, and I swear, I will not buy a Dec Hogan 4 wt!

 

 

al

[toolman]

I think that learning the different nymphing methods, swinging drys/sink tips and learning to make dry fly presentations with two handed rods, makes you a better fisherman, rather than only learning one method/tactic. Same goes for line systems/casting styles. Learning how to cast/fish with Traditional long lines, Full sunk lines, Scandinavian Shooting heads with polytips, Skagit heads with sink tips, Full sink Scandi heads etc, will also make you a better fisherman. If you learn the how, when and where to use these different options, you will ultimately become a more skilled/experienced/successfull Spey fisherman.

Same goes for all of the different Touch n Go or Sustained Anchor Spey casts, including, the Single Spey, Double Spey, Reverse Double, Circle C, Snap T, Perry Poke, Wombat Cast, Scandinavian Spiral, Snake Roll, Two Hand Overhead, Side Arm Spey, using Traditional Scotish Spey Casting, Underhand Casting or Modern Spey Casting techniques.

I have studied/practised them all and they are all usefull for different conditions, presentations.

As Al mentioned, why would anyone want to take the short road to boredom? That said, folks should fish any way that suits them best, regardless of what anyone else thinks of it...

[alhuger]

My guess is that rather than leader stiffness being the issue I think Marc is tangling more often because of his choice of cast. Marc does not typically roll cast his line out but rather uses a circle, perry or a double to move line. This gives his rig more opportunity to wind tangle or tangle if his loop is really tight (given his leader size I am doubting it's turnover here). Almost everyone I watch nymph with a triple rig roll casts and that leaves the rig in the water for the maximum amount of time and decreases the odd of a tangle. The roll cast works fine but It also does not help much if your trying to learn actual (other) spey casts. Also as Marc notes he often tangles on the hookset where he yardarms it out of the water.

 

I tangle pretty much the same way and for a few other reasons (regardless of rig):

 

1. I am left hand up (always) and I often drop my shoulder on the cast which tangles my whole cast.

2. I occasionally do not position my anchor close enough to me which blows my cast and causes a tangle.

3. I occasionally attempt to violate the 180 principle and cast in some other direction contrary to where my D loops is.

4. I move too fast. Violating the SFD principle.

 

al

[headscan]

Oh, and I swear, I will not buy a Dec Hogan 4 wt!

Yes you will. I know it and you know it. You're too weak to resist. Then you'll let me try it and I'll end up buying one too.

[toolman]

Al, I can cast a heavy triple Nymph rig using any type of Spey cast, without any problem with tangles.

[alhuger]

Al, I can cast a heavy triple Nymph rig using any type of Spey cast, without a problem with tangles.

 

That's an accomplishment. I have not seen you cast in a long time do you roll cast less now?

[toolman]

I never roll cast but always use Spey casts where the line is completely aerialized off of the water. Doubles, Circles, Snake Rolls, Perry Pokes etc.

[pkk]

I never roll cast but use Spey casts where the line is arielized off the water. Doubles, Circles, etc.

 

Jez, I haven't seen you cast since spring.sounds like you have come a long way in a very short period.well done.

[toolman]

I've had the opportunity to work with some great Spey casting instructors over the past 7 months, which really put my focus on the casting and less on the fishing...That and getting out on the water another 100 times since May, too practise, has also made a big difference...I did sneak in some fish slammin' along the way though, as the fishing was just too good to resist...

[alhuger]

I still roll cast the triple nymph rig often. My goal is to get the line out and fishing. I only spey cast the ugly rigs when I am trying to impress Marc. I still prefer a single hander for nymphing but I will do it with my double because I am terminally lazy and that way I can only take one rod with me when I am walking and wading.

 

al

[headscan]

Yeah, hands down the single hander is far better and more enjoyable for nymphing than the double hander in my opinion. I'm only using the double hander now because I'm too cold to wade. I can cast my Opti Coast with three nymphs and an indy 50-60 feet out no problem, but it becomes a lot more difficult to mend that much line with only 9'6" of rod compared to 12'+ and it involves a lot more stripping and shooting. I mainly use doubles, circles, and perry pokes when nymphing both the single and double handers because they're extremely efficient casts.

 

I impress pretty easily Al, yet I'm still unimpressed by some.

[toolman]

Yeah, hands down the single hander is far better and more enjoyable for nymphing than the double hander in my opinion.

 

I impress pretty easily Al, yet I'm still unimpressed by some.

 

I understand the more enjoyable part of using your 9'6"single hander for nymphing, if that's your thing and what you know how to do best, but can you explain how using a 9'6" single hander is far better for nymphing, than a two hander?

What perceived advantages do you see and using what Nymphing methods/techniques are you seeing these benefits, High Sticking, Czech Nymphing, Long line indicator fishing, Spanish Nymphing, Polish Nymphing?

[alhuger]

I understand the more enjoyable part of using your 9'6"single hander for nymphing, if that's your thing and what you know how to do best, but can you explain how using a 9'6" single hander is far better for nymphing, than a two hander?

What perceived advantages do you see and using what Nymphing methods/techniques are you seeing these benefits, High Sticking, Czech Nymphing, Long line indicator fishing, Spanish Nymphing, Polish Nymphing?

 

 

I think the emphasis was on 'in my opinion' I do not speak for Marc but I am pretty sure it's a personal assessment. For myself I dislike throwing an indicator with a two handed rod. Can I do it? Sure. Do I enjoy it? No. I dislike indicators in general and I hope to, one day, get enough skill mustered to nymph sans corkie (and not only in one of the 'European' styles you note above). I find indies remove a critical part of the experience for me, first contact with the fish.

 

As for using the two hander for everything, well for me at least it just does not always make sense. Having said that I tend to do it because I am lazy. I do not however use it for dry fly fishing as that just strikes me as a little stupid ((and I am not referring to skating or swinging dry flies). I also avoid using it on lakes for a whole series of reasons not the least of which is that a 13 foot rod in a boat can be a pain in the ass.

 

al

[maxwell]

My guess is that rather than leader stiffness being the issue I think Marc is tangling more often because of his choice of cast. Marc does not typically roll cast his line out but rather uses a circle, perry or a double to move line. This gives his rig more opportunity to wind tangle or tangle if his loop is really tight (given his leader size I am doubting it's turnover here). Almost everyone I watch nymph with a triple rig roll casts and that leaves the rig in the water for the maximum amount of time and decreases the odd of a tangle. The roll cast works fine but It also does not help much if your trying to learn actual (other) spey casts. Also as Marc notes he often tangles on the hookset where he yardarms it out of the water.

 

I tangle pretty much the same way and for a few other reasons (regardless of rig):

 

1. I am left hand up (always) and I often drop my shoulder on the cast which tangles my whole cast.

2. I occasionally do not position my anchor close enough to me which blows my cast and causes a tangle.

3. I occasionally attempt to violate the 180 principle and cast in some other direction contrary to where my D loops is.

4. I move too fast. Violating the SFD principle.

 

al

 

i dont roll cast and dont tangle much either.. it could be technique. leaders or something else. but if the loops are collapsing on you mid flight it might be a better idea too stop a little storter and force it too straighten out

 

 

I understand the more enjoyable part of using your 9'6"single hander for nymphing, if that's your thing and what you know how to do best, but can you explain how using a 9'6" single hander is far better for nymphing, than a two hander?

What perceived advantages do you see and using what Nymphing methods/techniques are you seeing these benefits, High Sticking, Czech Nymphing, Long line indicator fishing, Spanish Nymphing, Polish Nymphing?

 

isnt this about indicators? whats with all the highstick/non indi fishing techniques listed above.. personally i still feel a sinlge handed rod is better for this aswell. i find i have better control, feel the strikes easier(more sensative) fatigue less aswell and dont fumble with the rod as much. so IMHO its way better aswell.. i only use my spey for teh distance game. inclose it dosnt compare

 

i feel a spey is good for presenting nymph rigs at distance but when i am fishing indicators, hoppers dropper intight highsticking etc i find i need less back casting room, have far better line control, dont fatigue as much (compared too fishing a spey with one hand) and get a quicker hookset because i have less rod too move. lighter weighted line etc..

[headscan]

Al pretty much nailed it. The in my opinion part is what's important there. I prefer the up close and personal feel of nymphing with a single hander. I'm not opposed to nymphing with the spey rod (if you go to the top of the first page of this thread you may notice that I started it) and I use the same casts with both types of rods. When it comes to swinging streamers and other big flies I prefer the spey rod hands down. For dead drifting nymphs, I'll use the spey in the winter so I can stay out of the water and still get my rig out to a wintering hole with little effort. In warmer weather though, using a spey rod to cast to fish within 20 feet of me is like hammering finishing nails with a sledgehammer. I prefer to use the right tool for the job. As a Toolman you should be able to appreciate that. In my opinion.

[toolman]

You have to wonder then, why many of the International flyfishing team members are showing up at the World Flyfishing Championships with 11'- 12' rods, too fish streams the size of Stauffer, using these rods for all of their fishing techniques, from the various nymphing tactics, including close up fishing such as Czech/Polish nymphing, dry fly presentations, Loch fishing out of boats or from Lake shorelines, etc.? Contrary to what you guys may believe is best, I think these guys have the science of flyfishing pretty much figured out...IMHO, long rods rule, anytime, anyplace, anywhere...

[johnbransfield]

I think max was refering to using spey being a little unsensitive and heavy for highsticking, but you are correct, on streams its long. My competition and recreation arson consists of 10' 3wt and 4wt, and we got some new 11' 5wts in the works too for the river side soft and supply tip for strike detection.

On the loch portion its all about the 10' 7wts, pretty much standard, you'll find any distance single handed rods have a 10' 7wt in the mix for that purpose.

[alhuger]

You have to wonder then, why many of the International flyfishing team members are showing up at the World Flyfishing Championships with 11'- 12' rods, too fish streams the size of Stauffer and using these rods for all of their fishing techniques, from the various nymphing tactics, including close up fishing such as Czech/Polish nymphing, dry fly presentations, Loch fishing out of boats or from Lake shorelines, etc.? Contrary to what you guys may believe is best, I think these guys have the science of flyfishing, pretty much figured out...IMHO.

 

Greg,

 

You seem hell bent on turning everything into a competition of sorts. If you read Marc's posts, or mine for that matter, they are pretty carefully premised as personal opinion. As for the International Fly Fishing Team Members, who cares? The absolute last thing fishing on the fly is for me is a competition of any sort. I fish allot with Marc so I'll speak for him there as well. In general when people do not adhere to your approach to angling (using the big stick for nearly everything) you start to proselytize the benefits of the long rods and question their approach. Zero benefit can be had from this as far as I can see. We are heavily into spey casting we just don't use it for all the same things as you. No one is right here - this is a subjective thing we do and thankfully so.

 

As for the 'science of flyfishing' comment at the end. Dude, this is not a science not even close to a science. Conservation MIGHT be a science, biology certainly, hooking fish in the face with a hook - not so much.

 

al

[toolman]

Greg,

You seem hell bent on turning everything into a competition of sorts. In general when people do not adhere to your approach to angling (using the big stick for nearly everything) you start to proselytize the benefits of the long rods and question their approach.

al

 

So, when we disagree, you choose to make personal attacks?...How about keeping your comments/opinions directed at the subject matter and stick too sharing your experiences. And try and accept that others (not in your small clique), may have something to add to the discussion that may be contrary to your opinions. I too, expressed my preference, experiences and opinion and have also stated many times, that fly fisherman should fish whatever way that suits them best. I also listened respectfully, without making personal attacks, to your views and opinions on the subject....But, if someone makes claims that are contrary to fact/science, then expect that some may disagree. And contrary to your belief, successfull flyfishing is indeed about logic and understanding the science...

[alhuger]

 

So, when we disagree, you choose to make personal attacks?...How about keeping your comments/opinions directed at the subject matter and stick too sharing your experiences. And try and accept that others (not in your small clique), may have something to add to the discussion that may be contrary to your opinions. I too, expressed my preference and opinion and also stated many times, that fly fisherman should fish whatever way that suits them best. I also listened respectfully, without making personal attacks, to your views and opinions on the subject....But, if someone makes claims that are contrary to fact/science, then expect that some may disagree. And contrary to your belief, successfull flyfishing is indeed about logic and understanding the science...

 

If you think that was a personal attack you need to check your head, thoroughly. I would take the time to craft a reply but it would be lost on you.

 

 

al

[toolman]

Really... no character generalizations there in your comments, Al? Maybe you should review your post again. But, don't waste your time crafting a reply, as "it would be lost on me"...You probably don't see anything wrong with that comment either, eh...seeing as how "I need to have my head checked throughly" and all...

[maxwell]

You have to wonder then, why many of the International flyfishing team members are showing up at the World Flyfishing Championships with 11'- 12' rods, too fish streams the size of Stauffer, using these rods for all of their fishing techniques, from the various nymphing tactics, including close up fishing such as Czech/Polish nymphing, dry fly presentations, Loch fishing out of boats or from Lake shorelines, etc.? Contrary to what you guys may believe is best, I think these guys have the science of flyfishing pretty much figured out...IMHO, long rods rule, anytime, anyplace, anywhere...

 

 

dude they are fishing 4 hour sessions when i refer too fatigue i am meaning a full days fishin so IMHO comp. agnling aint nothing like recreation the use of the gear is totally different. i htink some of those guys competing probably have the science figured out yes but its more the entemology, flies and rigs they use that get them the win not the long rod. they wanted too reach further and fish faster i would assume so thati s why they would be using a longer stick but in practical/more effective fishing situations i jstu dont see it being a practical way too fish. i know u are obsessed with they spey i think we all get it but keep on hyping it too teh fullest if u think u are swaying anyone too buy it and use it 100% of the time.. also when someone has a different opinion its probably better too listen and maybe learn something(u dotn halfto adopt the idea or stick with theres but well roundded skills and knowledge is better not one sided conservative BS) ratehr than jstu say hells no right off the bat like u always do. hell if it aint your way its the highway and personally i think that is a freakin joke. how many times did we argue over something and u said no way then a week later after u thought about it and researched it u learned I WAS RIGHT and now its YOUR idea... come on dude this *hit is getting old..... and one last thing.. since u like "challenges" give it a go i dare ya. fish a single hander all day highsticking and then do it with the spey and tell me wich is more fatiguing, has greater control, is less awkward too fish with and has better sensetivity..... i personally have tried WAY more *hit than you i freakin know it and always test my theories.. so prove me wrong rather than hoping on some bandwagon reppin it and acting like u are the "king of whatever"

[toolman]

Your *hit is getting a little old too Max...