River Rage?

[reevesr1]

How many fish die from release? How many fish are mis-handled (I've seen lots, from guides and clients)? How much litter is left behind? How many of those clients go back later on their own... increasing crowding? And make no mistakes, you can keep fish with some guides> its not all floating down the Bow polietly releasing the occasional fish- Its hard hitting everyday, everywater with as many clients as possible> its how you make a living. If handling mortality is as low as 1%, How many guides, have how many clients, on how many waters?? How many dead fish that the public paid for and the guides got paid to fish?

 

Its about cumulative effects, and we now have too many people in Alberta using the same resources. Without some sort of limiting system, or a fund to maintain the resources, we are going to loose it.

 

So I've fished with a number of guides here in Alberta (its a tough job I have!). I haven't met one yet who wasn't conservation minded. They do most of the fish handling unless you make them stop, and every one I have dealt with treated the fish with the utmost respect. Same for the resource. I can't imagine any of them allowing me or my guest to leave any litter behind. I think having guides introduce a new fisherman to the resource and showing him the proper way to treat the fish and environment is a good thing. I also found the etiquette of the guides I dealt with to be outstanding. As far as guides taking up someones spot, what difference does it make that its a guide?

 

I did not have the privilege of being here back in the day, before there were people and all. My bet is there were lots of fish and very few people fishing them. It must have been paradise. Unfortunately for those who have lived here for a long time, those days are gone. Can I tell you that the days we have now are really, really good? Any comparable trout streams in Montana would have >10X the number of anglers, yet they still seem to produce fish. My bet is that as long as the mortality is much less than the fishes ability to replenish back to carrying capacity, the resource is completely sustainable. The fish may get harder to catch. I would be willing to bet that poaching is a far greater threat to fish stocks than mortality. And an increase in C&R anglers would probably lower the number of poachers, because they would be more likely to be seen and called in.

 

I also think guides should be licensed, mostly so you can keep track of numbers. The money that would come from licensing fees would be minuscule in the big picture. If you make it too high, the cost would just get passed on to the customer anyway.

 

Sorry for the re-hijack after Lynn so politely tried to get this back on track.

[newflyer]

As everyone is saying - there is a lot of water on the bow... but for how long, the popularity of the sport is certainly increasing, as is the population base in Alberta, and with these increases will come increased opportunities for commercial ventures and recreational angling. I think that licensing guides, as is done in many areas (BC for example) will help to ensure that there is "lots of water" for all uses, including commericial ventures, as the city and sport continues to grows.

 

Having said that, when I get to a pool and there is someone 'parked' for the day I exchange a few polite words wish them 'tight lines' and move on.

 

Lets all takes this energy get a bit mad about a bass pro shop north of the city... time to enforce the "support your local fly shop" creed.

[Harps]

So I've fished with a number of guides here in Alberta (its a tough job I have!). I haven't met one yet who wasn't conservation minded. They do most of the fish handling unless you make them stop, and every one I have dealt with treated the fish with the utmost respect. Same for the resource. I can't imagine any of them allowing me or my guest to leave any litter behind. I think having guides introduce a new fisherman to the resource and showing him the proper way to treat the fish and environment is a good thing. I also found the etiquette of the guides I dealt with to be outstanding. As far as guides taking up someones spot, what difference does it make that its a guide?

 

I did not have the privilege of being here back in the day, before there were people and all. My bet is there were lots of fish and very few people fishing them. It must have been paradise. Unfortunately for those who have lived here for a long time, those days are gone. Can I tell you that the days we have now are really, really good? Any comparable trout streams in Montana would have >10X the number of anglers, yet they still seem to produce fish. My bet is that as long as the mortality is much less than the fishes ability to replenish back to carrying capacity, the resource is completely sustainable. The fish may get harder to catch. I would be willing to bet that poaching is a far greater threat to fish stocks than mortality. And an increase in C&R anglers would probably lower the number of poachers, because they would be more likely to be seen and called in.

 

I also think guides should be licensed, mostly so you can keep track of numbers. The money that would come from licensing fees would be minuscule in the big picture. If you make it too high, the cost would just get passed on to the customer anyway.

 

Sorry for the re-hijack after Lynn so politely tried to get this back on track.

 

Hey Rick, there are many great fly fishing guides. There are many great guides that use other gear. But there are quite a few (not always flyfishing and not always trout fishing guides) that don't care. Plus the guides can't watch everything their clients do. now don't get me wrong, I think the individuals are great and likely very conservation minded.... but things add up.

 

Couple of quick things> 2006 Montana had less than 950,000 population (under 430,000 homes), less than the population of Calgary.

148,000 sq miles.> 6.4 people/sq. mi

 

Alberta 3.5 mil people- 255,000 sq miles> 13.7 people/sq. mi

 

Guides must be licenced in Montana (plus they have an excellent fisheries managment branch).

 

I would argue the majority of fly anglers in Alberta are in the bottom 1/4 of the province, concentrated along the eastslopes. The rest are on lakes looking for walleye, pike, and lakers.

Estimated last in 2002 at 375,000 anglers in Alberta (how hard is it to even get recent data on licenses sold, let alone senior and child anglers!?!).

 

There is good trout fishing throughout Montana. Montana also keeps track of fishing (logs), does angler satisfaction surveys, will shut down streams because of temperature, limits guide days on some rivers (such as the Big Hole and Beaverheads), and knows that there is a BIG income from maintaining quality fishing.

 

Alberta has oil, and fishing for oil workers when they're not working.

Alberta has not been a paradise since before I was born (although growing up fishing alone was great).

We are smart enough to manage things properly, though, and we should be doing the best we can to identify problems and come up with solutions, before its too late.

 

 

[Guest RedWiggler]

Guides should have to be licensed like everybody else period.

[wtforward]

Just a question(s)

 

Why would guides not want to be licensed ? What would be wrong with prominently

displaying the registration number somewhere on the boat/cataraft etc so they

can be identified thru some central register or Guide association. If guides earn

a pittance how come there is so many ? Does anyone believe that another 25-50

guides working the river would not affect the quality of the fishing experience for

others. See 'tradgety of the commons'. If I was a guide I would want you to

know that I am licensed and who I am. If I have encroached on your fishing

or offended you on the river I want to know and be held accountable otherwise

why are we out there. I want to protect my business and reputation.

Ebay feedback is great for that as an example.

 

Lynn..no offense but finding someplace else to fish whether on the river

or other places took a pretty good hit when the internet came into being.

 

Not trying to rile anyone but the Bow specifically has not changed how it is

managed since the population of Calagry was 400,000 + people if ever...

and it is time.

 

Maybe the real solution is a massive fish kill on the Bow. That would sort

things out real quick.

[reevesr1]

Hey Rick, there are many great fly fishing guides. There are many great guides that use other gear. But there are quite a few (not always flyfishing and not always trout fishing guides) that don't care. Plus the guides can't watch everything their clients do. now don't get me wrong, I think the individuals are great and likely very conservation minded.... but things add up.

 

Couple of quick things> 2006 Montana had less than 950,000 population (under 430,000 homes), less than the population of Calgary.

148,000 sq miles.> 6.4 people/sq. mi

 

Alberta 3.5 mil people- 255,000 sq miles> 13.7 people/sq. mi

 

Guides must be licenced in Montana (plus they have an excellent fisheries managment branch).

 

I would argue the majority of fly anglers in Alberta are in the bottom 1/4 of the province, concentrated along the eastslopes. The rest are on lakes looking for walleye, pike, and lakers.

Estimated last in 2002 at 375,000 anglers in Alberta (how hard is it to even get recent data on licenses sold, let alone senior and child anglers!?!).

 

There is good trout fishing throughout Montana. Montana also keeps track of fishing (logs), does angler satisfaction surveys, will shut down streams because of temperature, limits guide days on some rivers (such as the Big Hole and Beaverheads), and knows that there is a BIG income from maintaining quality fishing.

 

Alberta has oil, and fishing for oil workers when they're not working.

Alberta has not been a paradise since before I was born (although growing up fishing alone was great).

We are smart enough to manage things properly, though, and we should be doing the best we can to identify problems and come up with solutions, before its too late.

 

Am I the evil one on the seesaw??

 

I would venture a guess that the number of visitors angling in Montana are far, far greater than in Alberta and consequently the angler density significantly more there. But that is just a guess. You will have to agree that it is pretty easy to find water to yourself here if you are willing to spend 30 minutes or so hoofing it (which leads us back to the original thread). So is crowding truly an issue here? Depends on your reference I guess. If your experience is from here, and you've been fishing here for years, then the answer is yes. If you are from pretty much anywhere else, then no.

 

The angler density is sure to increase. I think that is a good thing. I think fishing is the best past time I can imagine, and I do my very best to promote it. This probably pisses some people off. Too bad. That said, I completely agree that we must do what we can to protect the resource itself. Licensing guides is a good idea. I personally don't think the number of guides today is a problem, but it could be in the future and licensing is the only way to monitor/control those numbers. Monitoring the rivers/streams, the Streamwatch program, ingraining catch and release on all flowing waters, etc. are necessary actions.

 

On the River Rage front, in my 2+ yrs of fishing here, I've only had one unpleasant river confrontation, and that was mostly my own doing. I think if one routinely finds river confrontations here, then the issue is probably with the person finding the problems. In other words, if you go out looking for things to be mad at, you'll probably find them (and I am not singling anybody out with that statement!)

[SanJuanWorm]

River pressure is fine. It will increase, but once we run out of oil the world will correct itself by 2/3's or our world population dying. Once this occurs we will go back to the stoneage and the fish will thrive once again.

 

Its nothing to worry about.

[Harps]

Am I the evil one on the seesaw??

Yes

 

 

I would venture a guess that the number of visitors angling in Montana are far, far greater than in Alberta and consequently the angler density significantly more there. But that is just a guess. You will have to agree that it is pretty easy to find water to yourself here if you are willing to spend 30 minutes or so hoofing it (which leads us back to the original thread). So is crowding truly an issue here? Depends on your reference I guess. If your experience is from here, and you've been fishing here for years, then the answer is yes. If you are from pretty much anywhere else, then no.

 

The angler density is sure to increase. I think that is a good thing. I think fishing is the best past time I can imagine, and I do my very best to promote it. This probably pisses some people off. Too bad. That said, I completely agree that we must do what we can to protect the resource itself. Licensing guides is a good idea. I personally don't think the number of guides today is a problem, but it could be in the future and licensing is the only way to monitor/control those numbers. Monitoring the rivers/streams, the Streamwatch program, ingraining catch and release on all flowing waters, etc. are necessary actions.

 

On the River Rage front, in my 2+ yrs of fishing here, I've only had one unpleasant river confrontation, and that was mostly my own doing. I think if one routinely finds river confrontations here, then the issue is probably with the person finding the problems. In other words, if you go out looking for things to be mad at, you'll probably find them (and I am not singling anybody out with that statement!)

 

I agree there are more anglers visiting Montana, and when I fish there there is more crowding on the big well known rivers (but you can get away around a corner), and the smaller waters are wide open. Much the same as here, people go to the big names first... one reason why naming spots on the internet is bad. It's fine for the number of anglers to increase, but density increases could be a problem for fish and for the experience. I don't really fish to just catch fish, I like to get away from society and have a bit of quiet where I can put myself on the most basic level of human existance... predator looking for prey.

 

Crowding is an issue when the quality of the angling experience is negatively affected... Like when you can't park at an access, cause there are too many cars, or somebody runs from a group of campers to claim a pool that you are moving upstream into, the kid sat there with a rod, smacking the water while his dad geared up and sauntered over to the pool from his trailer (both have happened to me, and I would have smacked the twirp if I could have crossed the river).

 

I promote fly fishing and will bring as many people into, and teach them my ethics (okay I'm perfect, but others can strive for perfection too... ). I hope people that I teach will strive to find waters of their own, and have the experienc of "discovering" their own fly fishing paradise. I hope they don't have to fly into the NWT to do it though.

 

I think (as usual ) we're on the same page... Licensing guides is good, fly fishing make people better, a good fishing experience is relative to what you know.

 

 

 

I'm going for another coffee. Brother's wedding tomorrow, another weekend with limited fishing time, and I'm grumpy.

[Taco]

, and I'm grumpy.

 

well thats good to know and all this time I thought you were dopey

[Harps]

well thats good to know and all this time I thought you were dopey

I know where you fish....

 

 

Actually with all this dang ragweed in the oldman river valley, I'm sneezy.

Hows the summer?

Been in Saskabush?

[Taco]

Not much, been hangin' around local, though that'll change soon enough.

 

 

Hypothetical question.....what do you do with a little creek with maybe a couple of dozen cutts (with questionable genetic makeup??) left? Total? If they go that'll leave about 6-8 km of creek barren

[Harps]

Hypothetical question.....what do you do with a little creek with maybe a couple of dozen cutts (with questionable genetic makeup??) left? Total? If they go that'll leave about 6-8 km of creek barren

 

1st, why so few cutts, and why would they go?

 

Hypothetically, if there were no hybrids, and habitat was suitable, it'd be a good place to try pure westslope stocking.

Realisticaly the priority would be to help the existing fishery survive and improve it.

[Taco]

end hijack... check your messages Paul