reevesr1 Posted January 19, 2008 Posted January 19, 2008 Mike, I enjoyed your post. When I read threads like these, it never ceases to amaze me how often peoples vision of what needs to be done in the name of "conservation" looks to change the behavior of others. However they are using the environment always seems to be just fine. You said you played a small part in the development of Kananaskis, and in doing so tried to accommodate as many user groups as possible. I can't imagine that was an easy task. Probably naive of me to believe anything like this could be done along the FTR. Quote
nick Posted January 19, 2008 Posted January 19, 2008 Rickr, you claim that some people judge conservation solely based on the actions of others, which in some instances is true. But why do fishing, hunting and industry rules constantly change -as often as every year- yet other destructive acts are hardly looked at at all? To say that fishermen blame quaders for all of the problems in the outdoors is hogwash, especially considering your implication that fishing rules don't change much to fix problems related to fishing. if that were true we'd still be paying 50 cents for a license and killing 50 trout per day. What do I think is the best solution? in all honesty, I'd love to see OHV and motorized random camping banned. Flat out. we all have opinions, and that is mine. It would fix the problem, and those who claim to just want to enjoy the outdoors still have the capacity to do so, just not on motorized vehicles and at the expense of the evironment. What is the most (or at least "more") practical solution? Turn the whole ES, or at least large parts of it, into a provincial park, or a series of parks, where camping is encouraged (and the provincial sites aren't delapitated), OHV's are permitted, but on maintained and approved (not solely existing trails) trails only- which have bridges, etc etc, much the same as most states do with State forest Reserves. That way, everyone gets a CONTROLLED piece of the outdoors, but the environment stills comes first. remember, fishermen are only allowed to fish in legally, open water, too, so it isn't "stereotying" or "picking on" anyone. Access should also be controlled and limited to certain times of year in various areas, according to succeptability of the ecosystem. For example, if fishing is only allowed from June 16 to Oct 31, ban motor traffic from trails that go within X distance from the streams, to protect the same spawning and fragile fish from potential damage from silt, disturbance, whatever. broaden the rules of various activities that are allready in place, and just make them inclusive for all recreation types. If protecting spawners from a stream is important, don't just limit fishing, don't allow quads to cross the stream, either. i mean, the best places to cross, coincidentally, are also the best places to spawn; nice bottom, gravel not huge boulders, slow enough flow to not be a problem, shallow enough to not swamp your vehicle, etc. It has to be done eventually. If it isn't done now, sure enough, it will be done later, and the policies won't be friendly for anyone. I'm not trying to point out squatters or OHV riders, but fishing is constantly under review and change, and went through a major overhaul in the late 90's, and it's time these other impacts get addressed. Quote
reevesr1 Posted January 19, 2008 Posted January 19, 2008 BrownTrout, I'm bored on a cold snowy Saturday, and so my statement was meant to be provocative. Nice to see it have the desired effect...... Your controlled access idea I find excellent. While I too would like to see ohv's banned, I don't think that is fair to the vast majority of them who treat the places they ride with respect. The lawless members of the ohv community should not force banning of the entire activity any more that fishermen who poach or have poor release practices should cause fishing to be banned. In both cases enforcement is the answer, but certainly not an easy one to implement. As to random campers, I think there should be areas where it is allowed, but only for set periods of time. You should not be able to set up your camp for the summer. 2 weeks maybe? Unfortunately, since the Livingstone parallels the FTR, it will probably always be a place where some random camping will be allowed. The campers have just as much right to the area as I do as a fisherman. I fished the Livingstone and creeks in the area 3 or 4 times this summer, for the first time in my life. Was amazed that people were allowed to set up for the summer and just leave their stuff. That said, in the times I fished I never heard any quads or bikes anywhere near me and most of the camps I saw were pretty clean. That said, if some ohv'ers had passed me while I was fishing, I wouldn't care much. If I really wanted a wilderness experience, I wouldn't expect it on a river that parallels the FTR. I'd do a hike in trip somewhere. Where I come from, there are proposals to create Fishing Exclusion Zones (i think that's the term). Like a wildlife sanctuary, but for fish. The places identified are almost unvaryingly the best fish habitat areas and as such the best places to fish. The groups advocating these zones, Greenpeace, PETA, etc. state that there will still be lots of places to fish. True, but they are advocating shutting down the best spots, and like fresh water, 90% of the fish are in 10% of the water. Many feel these are the opening salvos in an attempt to ban recreational fishing in the states. You may wonder why I bring this up in this post. Well, the people advocating these zones are well intentioned and completely convinced this is the best thing to do to "conserve" the environment. But since they don't fish, it has no impact on the way they enjoy the environment. Whenever I hear of anyone advocating banning any outdoor activity, I think of these exclusion zones. There has to be ways to accommodate all users, not just us fishermen. Sometimes, banning an activity may be necessary, but I caution that we think long and hard before we reach that conclusion. Quote
lonefisher Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 I gotta say Rickr, Fishhead and MikeFS seem to be looking at the big picture and I tend to agree with them...... This forum does seem very down on anything motorized and in my opinion if an area has a quad trail through it that should be fine, they should be monitored, they should not rip up creeks, and the number of trails should be limited. As soon as a big group gets together and starts outright banning/trying to ban others its just a matter of time until all groups are banned or all groups just simply hate each other..... I know a few guys who belong to some quading groups who build bridges, fix erosion sites and generally do their best to leave the place better then when they arrive. I also have seen some of the assholes who drive around in rivers do donuts in pastures ect. So some are saying we should ban all the quaders because of the bad ones? Ok sorry but thats just not a great idea because if you simply replace quads with fishermen its the same arguement against us...... no one can deny that not only in the past but also the present that there are bad ass fishermen, there are poaching fishermen, there are littering fishermen, there are ignorant fishermen. SO if you can say that its fair that we ban all ATV'ers simply because of the bad ones then you are a hypocrite if you don't have the same feelings in regards to fishing. Regulate more, build bridges where they have river crossings, charge them access or trail fees to pay for upkeep and monitoring, Even a camera system in delicate areas to snap pics of people being destructive could be a possibility. Punish the assholes not everybody else thats my opinion...... I do have one other thing I feel should be noted specifically in regards to the Livingstone River....... Where is everyone parking to fish? I have never seen 1 single vehicle parked right on the FTR and theres not really any established parkin lots up there....... SO anyone who leaves the FTR to park is off the highway.......... So does this mean we are against off highway vehicles but we are not against our highway vehicles that we take off the highway? Quote
Guest bigbadbrent Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 my little honda doesn't leave the FTR Quote
reevesr1 Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 \ I do have one other thing I feel should be noted specifically in regards to the Livingstone River....... Where is everyone parking to fish? I have never seen 1 single vehicle parked right on the FTR and theres not really any established parkin lots up there....... SO anyone who leaves the FTR to park is off the highway.......... So does this mean we are against off highway vehicles but we are not against our highway vehicles that we take off the highway? Never thought of that. I do park off the road. But it has been with my Saturn (1.8L of screaming offroad power) or my wifes Dodge Minivan. I don't think either one is in any danger of pulling off donuts Maybe BBB and I can have an offroad race! Quote
Guest bigbadbrent Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 haha, front wheel drive for the win! Little better for driving on the FTR then the ol beamer..thing was scary to drive in the winter, let alone on gravel Quote
adc Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 Lot's of good ideas and concern and that's a good thing..........While there are lots of good ideas on what needs to be changed, I think you'd all agree that enforcement of regulations already in place is a big part of the problem....... The Oldman River Chapter of TU will be working to have a Streamwatch student CO in the area starting in May......for those of you not familiar with Streamwatch it places a student conservation officer in a designated area who is repsonsible only for monitoring and enforcing angling and stream violtaions such as misuse of quads, violations by industry and such things as random camping.........Student CO's have all the powers of a policeman except the power to arrest.........They report directly and are supervised by the local F&W CO but have responsiblities ONLY for doing the stream work---i.e aren't called out on bear patrol, etc. etc...........The program was started on the Ram and Blackstone rivers by the Central Alberta TU chapter (Barry Mitchell/Don Anderson) and has been very successful..........It has also been expanded to the Edson, Sundre and GrandCache regions........Many of the fines levied under the program have been channelled back into funding the Streamwatch program....... So here's how you can help..........To put a student CO in place from May through September will cost $25,000........OMR TU will be undertaking several fundraising projects for this cause..........In addition and most importantly, we will be soliciting donations from businesses, resource companies, and individuals who want to make a difference............IF YOU WISH TO DONATE TO THIS CAUSE OR KNOW OF INDIVIDUALS OR COMPANY'S WHO YOU THINK COULD HELP, PLEASE CONTACT ME!!........All donations are tax deductible and once the program is running and successful, it will be easier to ensure that it continues and expands..........If you want more information you can contact me by p.m. or through this board......... Al...... Quote
Tako Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 Lot's of good ideas and concern and that's a good thing..........While there are lots of good ideas on what needs to be changed, I think you'd all agree that enforcement of regulations already in place is a big part of the problem....... The Oldman River Chapter of TU will be working to have a Streamwatch student CO in the area starting in May......for those of you not familiar with Streamwatch it places a student conservation officer in a designated area who is repsonsible only for monitoring and enforcing angling and stream violtaions such as misuse of quads, violations by industry and such things as random camping.........Student CO's have all the powers of a policeman except the power to arrest.........They report directly and are supervised by the local F&W CO but have responsiblities ONLY for doing the stream work---i.e aren't called out on bear patrol, etc. etc...........The program was started on the Ram and Blackstone rivers by the Central Alberta TU chapter (Barry Mitchell/Don Anderson) and has been very successful..........It has also been expanded to the Edson, Sundre and GrandCache regions........Many of the fines levied under the program have been channelled back into funding the Streamwatch program....... So here's how you can help..........To put a student CO in place from May through September will cost $25,000........OMR TU will be undertaking several fundraising projects for this cause..........In addition and most importantly, we will be soliciting donations from businesses, resource companies, and individuals who want to make a difference............IF YOU WISH TO DONATE TO THIS CAUSE OR KNOW OF INDIVIDUALS OR COMPANY'S WHO YOU THINK COULD HELP, PLEASE CONTACT ME!!........All donations are tax deductible and once the program is running and successful, it will be easier to ensure that it continues and expands..........If you want more information you can contact me by p.m. or through this board......... Al...... Are you hiring? Quote
fisher26 Posted January 21, 2008 Author Posted January 21, 2008 Almost sounds too good to be true! I would be great to have a full time CO type person in that area. Quote
adc Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 Are you hiring? I was assuming you were already hired Taco!! .........I hear you are also a director..........At any rate, I hope you'll work with us on this one.........I'm away 'til the end of January but will be in touch when I get back and we can have a quick committee meeting and get this thing rolling..........Look forward to working with you........ Al.... Quote
reevesr1 Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 Al, I was going to PM you, but I figured it would be better to do it here: I'll donate $50.00. Wish it could be more. How do I get it to you? How many members here? 1000? How many fish the Livingstone? Lots, I bet. Pony up boys and girls!!! Quote
Taco Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 I was assuming you were already hired Taco!! .........I hear you are also a director..........At any rate, I hope you'll work with us on this one.........I'm away 'til the end of January but will be in touch when I get back and we can have a quick committee meeting and get this thing rolling..........Look forward to working with you........ Al.... Wrong Tako Al, I'm the big dumb dutch cowboy hooftrimmer one named Taco who spends alot of time @ Hutterite Colonies and it was a bit of a surprise to me too... join TU and become a director of the Old Man Chapter all in the same evening. Oh well, it'll be fun givin' something back instead of just makin' loud noises with that mustache covered hole under my nose. Hope da hell your stayin' warm down there in Arazooma :D Quote
SamIam Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 For all those in favor of increased fishing license fees, this would be a great way for your money to go to exactly where you want. And you will even be able to see the results and say I helped do that, instead of having it disappear into the black hole. Quote
Tako Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 Wrong Tako This would be the Tako that needs a summer job in fisheries....will be keeping an eye out. Quote
Harps Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 www.ab-conservation.com/about_us/Reports_publications/conservation/other%20collaborative%20reports/stewardship_license_report-quinn.pdf A report about how to change the license structure in the East Slopes. Too bad when the license costs go up they don't put something like this in place. I'm all for a ES stamp with a Fisheries test. Quote
adc Posted January 22, 2008 Posted January 22, 2008 Al, I was going to PM you, but I figured it would be better to do it here: I'll donate $50.00. Wish it could be more. How do I get it to you? How many members here? 1000? How many fish the Livingstone? Lots, I bet. Pony up boys and girls!!! Right on Rick and thanks a bunch!!!...... ....If everyone does $50 we're in great shape and once we tap into some of the corporate gang maybe we could have 2 student CO's before you know it............CHEQUES FOR SOUTHERN ALBERTA STREAMWATCH SHOULD BE MADE PAYABLE TO "TROUT UNLIMITED" AND MARKED STREAMWATCH AS A NOTATION.........CHEQUES CAN BE MAILED TO ME (ALLAN CALDWELL at 137 COACHWOOD POINT, LETHBRIDGE ALBERTA, T1K 6A6............I will hold all personal donation cheques in trust until we are sure we can fund the program for this year and in the event we cannot, I will return your cheque........ Al...... Quote
reevesr1 Posted January 22, 2008 Posted January 22, 2008 Al, No problem. Thanks for getting this up and running. Check is in the mail. Promise. Ok folks, many on this board has said they'd be willing to pay more for their licenses if they knew the money was going right back into the resource. For those of you who fish the Livingstone, here is your chance. Quote
Teck71 Posted January 22, 2008 Posted January 22, 2008 I'll Call ya Rick, just so's ya don't double dog dare me Check will be in the mail by friday Al, I plan on spending most of the summer down south. Teck Next up Quote
trevally Posted January 23, 2008 Posted January 23, 2008 Putting a cheque in the mail tomorrow. Looking forward to getting my license checked while fishing for once!! Quote
adc Posted January 23, 2008 Posted January 23, 2008 Putting a cheque in the mail tomorrow. Looking forward to getting my license checked while fishing for once!! Thanks Trevally...........Yes, wouldn't it be nice if we got checked once in every 2 or 3 times out.......I'm not sure I can remember when I was checked last...........Gonna need some serious enforcement on Police this year as well with the new regs.......Thanks again for your cheque..... Al..... Quote
mikefromsundre Posted January 23, 2008 Posted January 23, 2008 Back to original thread idea. The key is enforcement. The laws governing off road vehicles are there. It is the law that you have to be licenced and wear a helmet. How many do? We have laws about crossing streams. But we do not have the man power to enforce. Ever driven QE2 or even the Deerfoot? We do have laws about speeding. We have laws against poaching -yet it happens all the time. There are laws about how long you can random camp. Enforcement of it is a nightmare. I understand you need a ministerial order to evict someone. I would like to see some sort of licence or permit system. I wouldn't mind paying a $100 a year that would give me a random camping permit. If the permit was large and displayed on the RV or at the site then records of who is camping where could be kept, especially on long weekends. I know there are trailer and vehicle plates, but if someone has to pay for a permit that must be visible some of the long weekend problems with the partiers might decrease. But again it comes down to enforcement. At least when officers go into a big mess and there are no permits they would have grounds for eviction and with a permit they could keep records of infractions for future reference. Quote
Fishietales Posted January 23, 2008 Posted January 23, 2008 I've just been reading about your plite with regards to the livingstone, it seems such a same, if theres anything you think we can do over here in the UK to help please don't hesitate to ask, I don't know if we can but we'd be willing to try, I'll put a post on our forum over here you never know, hope something get done over there Quote
shredneck Posted January 24, 2008 Posted January 24, 2008 Maybe some kind of "random camping " certificate would weed out the jerks. Slapping an extra fee on camping isn't going to deter the masses from doing as they please on a long weekend. They could offer a course on random camping(like hunting) that you must successfuly complete in order to purchase your "annual random camping license". Anyone caught camping without it gets nailed. This MIGHT weed out the people who have no respect. I know I would be willing to earn my right to use the backcountry. Dave Quote
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