Saving The Livingstone

[fisher26]

The Livingstone as you all know is a spectacular trout stream. Big hunger cuts swim through deep emerald pools and shallow choppy runs. Monster bull trout cruise looking for prey in the deepest bluest pools. The river is surrounded with spectacular canyon scenery and towering pines. Not only this but a nice gravel road parallels the river for easy access.

 

However the Livingstone is under attack. Every year thousands of trailer campers, ATV ers and off road drivers take the short drive south to spend the weekend. In the last few years the numbers of free campers have sky rocketed and so have the numbers of off road drivers. The problem is the environment around the little river is getting destroyed. Garbage is being dumped by the water. Broken beer bottles litter the shoreline in some places and the forest is one giant washroom (toilet paper scattered everywhere). Quads occasionally cross the river and the campers give the fishing a shot, not knowing the C&R regulations.

 

However the middle section of the Livingstone is not only under threat. The upper reaches have a natural gas well and a massive million dollar clear cutting project is taking place at the headwaters. Silt has become a problem, every year the quiet water seems to have more and more silt. Due to the catch and release regs the numbers of beaten up fish have gone up too (overall C&R are the best thing to happen to the river). I am concerned because I love the Livingstone and I don't know how long it can last.

 

What do you think we should do to protect the Livingstone?

 

Before it's too late.

[Harps]

There's this too....

http://flyfishcalgary.com/board/index.php?...amp;#entry31720

 

Protect the tribs and hillsides, regulate random camping, get some more enforcement down there (TU is talking Streamwatch for the area tonight!!!).

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A downturn in the Alberta economy and an increase in gas costs would help... And maybe pull out the road

[snakeman]

Thanks for the link Harps, I missed that other thread. I just sent my comments away, hopefully everyone else here will do the same.

I really like the idea of the classified waters system here, along with increased CO activity on the Liv and others East Slopes streams. Also, they should just ban ATV and dirt biking completely in that area; restrict them to places that are already f.u.b.a.r like the McLean creek area.

[regdunlop]

I agree with banning ATV and dirtbiking in the area (they did it in Waiprous so why not down there too). The events of the long weekend last year should be enough to ban all of the off-roading right now as far as I'm concerned. I would say they also need to reduce the random camping, or at least restrict it to certain areas. And way better enforcement. I too have never been asked to produce my license, and I can't remember ever seeing F+W on any trips I have taken down there.

I don't know about the classified and / or lottery system. Seems to me like that would be starting down the slippery slope towards regulations like they have in the UK. It would be a sad day for me when I have to apply (and pay through the nose) to fish the places that I want to.

We can talk about this all we want, but what can we do to create a positive change???

[KingSalmon]

While they're at it, they should get tougher on ATVers who rip up the areas in and around creeks. In BC they have made it a fine of up to $100,000 and jail time if caught. Where are these common sense laws in Alberta?

 

Causing environmental damage with your ATV could cost as much as $100,000

 

Gordon Hamilton

Vancouver Sun

 

Friday, March 16, 2007

 

Take your four-wheel drive for a spin around a bog or go careering through an alpine meadow on your all-terrain vehicle and the B.C. government wants to hit you hard in the wallet.

 

It's called mud-bogging, and Forests and Range Minister Rich Coleman said Thursday he's seen enough environmental damage because of it to put drivers on notice.

 

Coleman introduced amendments to the Forest and Range Practices Act Thursday that will impose fines of up to $100,000 on anyone who is apprehended ripping up the wilderness with their vehicle.

 

"They really do chew it up. It's just unbelievable," Coleman said in an interview.

 

He's seen the effects on wetlands in the Kootenays and that convinced him the legislation needs to be updated to make it easier to impose penalties.

 

According to the Forests Ministry, people causing damage that "adversely affects an ecosystem, such as driving four-wheel-drive vehicles in wetlands, or riding ATVs irresponsibly in alpine terrain or range lands," will face the new penalties.

 

"It does some significant damage. These things destroy some pretty sensitive areas. A lot of time it's nesting areas for birds and the younger birds can't get out of their nests in time," Coleman said.

 

"There's damage to the ecosystem as well."

 

He said mud-bogging has been particularly damaging in the East Kootenays, where forest ministry staff have seen people doing it but did not have the legislative clout to stop them.

 

"They've observed as many 100 to 300 vehicles mud-bogging in a site."

 

He said the province has thousands of kilometres of forestry roads where four-wheel drive enthusiasts can drive without causing damage.

 

Although the regulatory change allows for fines up to $100,000 the actual amount of the penalty could be less depending on the circumstances and the record of the drivers who are apprehended.

 

Forest service staff and the RCMP will be able to apprehend mud-boggers under the new regulations and the fines will be imposed under the same legislation that governs infractions of logging practices.

 

If the legislation makes a difference to driving and riding habits, then it's welcome, said Moira Jaatteenmaki, vice-president of communications for ATV/BC, which represents 31 all-terrain vehicle clubs and 1,600 members throughout the province.

 

"The one thing we want is people riding responsibly. I'd like to know what the definitions of irresponsible and wetlands are though, so we know what they are talking about."

 

"We've always made it a rule -- unless there's an established trail, we don't ride there," she said. "We fully understand that if you ride in alpine terrain with an ATV it's takes years to heal the damage.

 

"But it's like any sport, there's always an irresponsible element or people who are just careless or frankly not thinking about the consequences of what they are doing."

 

She said she has seen damage to mountain ecosystems caused by careless riders and wetlands turned into mudpits in her own region of the province around Revelstoke.

 

When I find stuff like this on a stream, it makes me question the mentality of some people in this province.

These tracks ran through about 1 km of the stream

 

This was one of the idiots' license plates that must have fallen off in the creek

[trevally]

I believe, without question, that the issue of random camping needs to be addressed immediatly. There is no easier way to destroy vast natural areas than by having a series of unregulated campsites, especially when we are talking about several large trucks, campers and dirtbikes/ATV's.

 

It is obvious that there are many groups of people that enjoy using this natural area. However, I don't think it is fair to ban recreational vehicles as I am sure their users enjoy using them as much as I enjoy fly fishing.

 

Couldn't the alberta government pony up for some more campsites and outline some boundries in which recreational vehicle use is prohibited, i.e. anywhere near a body of water?

[trevally]

This is all just empty rhetoric unless we let our MLA's know how we feel! Look them up and let them know!

 

http://www.elections.ab.ca/streetkey/skSearchPostal.cfm

 

 

I believe, without question, that the issue of random camping needs to be addressed immediatly. There is no easier way to destroy vast natural areas than by having a series of unregulated campsites, especially when we are talking about several large trucks, campers and dirtbikes/ATV's.

 

It is obvious that there are many groups of people that enjoy using this natural area. However, I don't think it is fair to ban recreational vehicles as I am sure their users enjoy using them as much as I enjoy fly fishing.

 

Couldn't the alberta government pony up for some more campsites and outline some boundries in which recreational vehicle use is prohibited, i.e. anywhere near a body of water?

[Guest bigbadbrent]

Then why ban all random campers...I know when me and my dad used to go into the upper upper oldman, we'd only go in spots that had already been vacated (aka, not damaging anything more..), and hell, he made me walk around the campsite and clean up EVERY piece of garbage that was there before we even got setup....I remember this so well, cause i hated doing it, but i realise now, we probably cleaned up more garbage in a week of camping, then most do in a month of fishing. And when we left, there was never ANY garbage behind. What should be more addressed, is the people that throw their camper in a spot, and leave it there all summer long, that is a great way of making people go make new spots, which in turn ruins the land. I've seen campers that have had people in it ONE weekend, and they leave their huge camper there the rest of the summer, just to save that spot...

 

I think banning random camping is bogus, the land is crown, and if it's done correctly, random camping is infinitely more pleasurable then camping in a campsite....Banning ATV's from these areas, and putting them in areas which can sustain it, or are so past repair (Mclean creek) alone will cut random camping down in 2/3's

[nick]

Random camping and OHV use while destroying crown land makes about as much sense as tearing across your neighbours lawn on a quad and burning donuts in his grass. If you have the mental capacity to handle no impact camping great, too bad that 99% or the ever growing Alberta population knows about as much as an ant when it comes to true conservation. And they ruin it for everyone. When they trash the land by being thoughtless, I don't see it as using "crown land," I see it as them f***ing up MY land, as we all own a piece of it. I mean, they're usually smart enough not to destroy their own property (hence the dirt bike rallies on the upper L'stone- nice crown land they don't have to fix after the ruin it), but then they feel it is their right to go and destroy something that is 1/3,500,000th theirs. Screw that. Protect the damn rivers and ban the crazies.

[bigbowtrout]

Have a lottery draw for random camping permits and charge $200 a tag. The $200 could go towards a clean up at the end of the year. Same with ATVs only people with a permit can enter certian areas. Get caught in a stream or off a trail get a fine and lose your permit. All money raised goes to police and maintain the trails.

[lonefisher]

Heavily monitored organized trail system, zero tolerance + higher fines for littering, off trail riding, and fishing infractions as well as habitat detruction. Hit every user group harder when they screw around and break the rules that way its not banning or attacking just 1 group of users. As far as I am concerned everyone should be able to enjoy it out there but the foremost message to all should be Low Impact Recreation.

 

Definately want to hear more about this streamwatch meeting if you can Harps

[Guest Sundancefisher]

The Livingstone as you all know is a spectacular trout stream. Big hunger cuts swim through deep emerald pools and shallow choppy runs. Monster bull trout cruise looking for prey in the deepest bluest pools. The river is surrounded with spectacular canyon scenery and towering pines. Not only this but a nice gravel road parallels the river for easy access.

 

However the Livingstone is under attack. Every year thousands of trailer campers, ATV ers and off road drivers take the short drive south to spend the weekend. In the last few years the numbers of free campers have sky rocketed and so have the numbers of off road drivers. The problem is the environment around the little river is getting destroyed. Garbage is being dumped by the water. Broken beer bottles litter the shoreline in some places and the forest is one giant washroom (toilet paper scattered everywhere). Quads occasionally cross the river and the campers give the fishing a shot, not knowing the C&R regulations.

 

However the middle section of the Livingstone is not only under threat. The upper reaches have a natural gas well and a massive million dollar clear cutting project is taking place at the headwaters. Silt has become a problem, every year the quiet water seems to have more and more silt. Due to the catch and release regs the numbers of beaten up fish have gone up too (overall C&R are the best thing to happen to the river). I am concerned because I love the Livingstone and I don't know how long it can last.

 

What do you think we should do to protect the Livingstone?

 

Before it's too late.

 

I have to agree to protecting the Livingstone for sure. I used to fish it regularly but then as more and more people started coming out...more and more campers and trailers and trucks parked in every nook and cranny and I was personally picking up more and more garbage... it became more work than fun.

 

I look at sustainable and managed and responsible use as opposed to banning anything in particular. Mitigating problems rather than being a NIMBY is easier for everyone to swallow and easier to pass off as constructive to the problem rather than destructive. For instance rather than blame oil and gas activity (which helps you buy gas to drive there and heat your homes) how about someone respectfully request that the oil companies in the area provide funding for a conservation officer in the area to control littering, protect habitat and reduce abuse of the environment etc. Set a controlled area away from the river for quading but charge a fee for use that goes towards repairing damage. Fee goes up if damage goes up etc. Keeping quads and 4X4's away from the river and tributaries will definitely help with siltation. I would also make this river a special reg river with a special reg tag for Albertans and a hefty fee for non Albertans. Reducing the numbers of fishermen works for BC and should work for us also.

 

Camping should be controlled by the resource officer. They should be granted a permit for a specific location. A ticket for damages and cleanup including a fine can be levied should the site be improperly cleaned up. Bear proof garbage bins need to be placed strategically along the road.

 

On a more personal note...people would need to be more respectful of not stopping immediately upstream of someone and starting fishing therefore pounding the cutties down. Spread out people and enjoy...lots of fish for everyone.

 

Also fines for poaching etc. should be increased 10X along with forfeiture of gear, truck, trailer and anything else used in a trip to secure poaching booty.

 

And fishing licences should be increased in order to properly manage and protect our fisheries with fish licences and fines etc. going to the fishery resource.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[TerryH]

Ban all random camping within 2km of the trunk road. There are very nice campgrounds available, which are half empty most of the summer. It's BS to say you don't get the same "wilderness camping" experience in the existing campgrounds. Well how different is it to drive 100m off the road and random camp -- especially if you're using a 25ft trailer or motorhome? If people want the real wilderness experience, then put on the hiking boots and hike some serious kms. What may have worked 10 or 20 years ago is no longer viable, given the numbers of people we're dealing with today. It is simply not sustainable. Terry

[snakeman]

Nice article KS. I wish this province would follow BC's example and start progressing when it comes to conservation.

And I can't believe that vp of ATV clubs calls ATV riding a 'sport'. What a joke

[nick]

some thoughts...

 

-Why is C&R fly fishing the only "non-consumptive" (I know, it isn't exactly, but you get the idea) outdoor recreation that has pay for a license in the general, Alberta district? Charge "random campers," OHV, hikers etc for a yearly pass to be on/in forest reserves. give them ones to put on the dashboard and to put in their wallets so it can be enforced.

-Why do hunting and fishing reg's change with new info, yet the big money games like OHV and random camping don't have similar, constantly changing rules to be followed when damage is done to an area? We have C&R and closed waters, why can't they have "stay the Hell away from here" areas?

-Why do regular Joe's get to break policies that would land businesses in million dollar lawsuits (like driving vehicles up and down creeks and destroying land, stressing animals to the point where they abort their fetus' and stop reproducing) and receive no punishment?

-Why is the government attitude "well, we don't have the enforcement to enforce new rules, so why change the rules? Change the rules, some people will stop. It will help.

[KingSalmon]

Nice article KS. I wish this province would follow BC's example and start progressing when it comes to conservation.

And I can't believe that vp of ATV clubs calls ATV riding a 'sport'. What a joke

 

Aw c'mon Snakeman, it takes major athletic ability to sit on a quad lol.

And ya, why is BC so far ahead when it comes to fishing and environmental stuff. Or maybe the question is, why is Alberta so damn far behind?

[birchy]

Aw c'mon Snakeman, it takes major athletic ability to sit on a quad lol.

And ya, why is BC so far ahead when it comes to fishing and environmental stuff. Or maybe the question is, why is Alberta so damn far behind?

 

Tree Huggers vs. Rednecks...

 

Need I say more?

[nick]

i wouldn't say "rednecks versus tree huggers," I'd say people who don't care if Alberta turns into a ditch vs. people who give a *hit.

[dryfly]

Get your cameras out and get Dave to start an abuse page. Then start sending the images to all MLAs and the media.

 

Write a personal letter to Ted Morton with a copy to your own MLA. Somewhere on this site is a list of senior managers in SRD. Pictures are great to put in a letter.

 

Old randon camp webpage It seemed to work for a while. I've not been up for a few years so don't know what it is like anymore.

[mikefromsundre]

I love the Livingst. It is were I have taught my kids, wife and friends to fly fish. I worry it is being abused. I hate seeing the garbage, which seems to have increased last year after Mclean was closed down. I hate seeing 4x4s crossing streams and tearing the hills up. I hate oil companies (oops am I allowed to hate them in AB.?) that have no regard for the environ and their only concern is profit.

However - I random camp, have a quad, used to work for big oil, fly fish (which by the way to some people is the same a torturing an animal), hunt and drive a gas guzzling 1/2 ton. Last summer I spent 1 week random camping beside the Livingst. I love getting up early in morn. to sit by a stream or sit until it is very dark at night and my back is chilled. I also camped in Dutch Ck., Goldeye Lk. and campgrounds in Banff. I used my quad on the seimic lines along the SRam, not in or on the water and I walked miles along the Big Horn which just about killed my knees that really need surgery. I have volunteered my time with groups such as TU and DU.

I agree some new laws and regulations and more importantly enforcement needs to occur to protect what we have. There is no question about it.

But what continues to upset me is the contiued stereotyping that occurs -all random campers are polluters and need to be banned; all quad/dirt bikers are irresponsible and only out to tear up the country. I dislike the suggestion that random campers are all sitting there in their huge RVs. I now have an 18' trailer after years of tents, tent trailers and 1976 Holidaire trailer and yes I have carried my camp on my back for week long back packing trips. Stereotyping and pointing fingers usually gets nowhere. I guess I could take it further and from a non oiler workers perspective all oil people are over paid underworked jerks willing to drill anywhere (you do not want to know what my neighbors think when the landman comes driving up the lane in his fancy, huge SUV wanting to run another seismic line across our land) or all fly fisherman are snobs that want exclusive fishng rights for themselves. I realize this is not true since I have been or am a part of both groups.

We need better rules as I have already said. The reality though is this province is big with a lot people with different interests and beliefs and most posters here are just one side of a discussion that needs to occur. Compromises can work. I was involved in a tiny way in the development of K country. The attempt was made to accomodate all interests. Golf course, ski hill, xc skiing, back country hiking, horse trails, quad area, hunting and wildlife perserves. I am not sure it totally works. An attempt was made to allow all users in. Come on guys lets talk solutions and stop stereotyping. After all can any of his really sit back smuggly and say we have not been part of a problem somewhere, such as speeding on hiway 2 or catch and releasing huge numbers of cutts, when studies suggest that does cause a lot of the lip damage we are seeing.

Mike

[trailhead]

You have a lot of excellent points Mike, and what most of it comes down to is that a few bad apples ruin it for the rest. Unfortunately when someone abides by the rules and doesn't create any problems, no one notices. But when you get a bunch of drunken offroaders burning cars and "tearin it up" everyone notices. It's the same for any other groups be it , flyfishers, hunters, logging companies, oil companies etc. The only real solution is extra policing, and then the freedom activists start in with the "big brother" scenarios and with the extra costs the comes proposed user fees, which the tax activists see as a extra tax. So what do you do? Shut the whole area down and not allow anything? Limit the amount of users? That would just push people into other areas, ie the Castle and the Ram. This is a real tough issue and I don't have the answer. You can try to educate people, but will they listen.

[nick]

Mike, there is no question that some people do it responsibly, but the fact that people don't is why rules have to change. It is an unfortunate fact of life, but when a few idiots abuse the law and stretch it past its breaking point, it must change at the chargen of many people who weren't the major problem in the first place.

 

I wasn't fishing during the mass over fishing of the 1970's and 80's, but I'm still following the regulations that were changed to correct those wrongs. I never chucked a bull trout on the bank because I thought they were eating all the cutthroats, and that was why the cutts were disappearing (even though it was because they were over fished), but I have to release them now. I could go on...

 

So to the people who say, "it isn't me ruining it, don't punish all for the actions of few," I am forced to say, "Too bad." Unfortunately, that it what it has to come down to. The numbers are in, and there are about 1,000,000 OHV's in Alberta. Thats a serious number, and unless Alberta follows BC's lead, the number of users is likely to go up. Why wouldn't BC riders come to a province to tear up the streams; it is right next door, and they won't get fined like they would in their own province. makes sense to me.

 

Mike said, "Come on guys lets talk solutions and stop stereotyping." We aren't stereotyping; quads ruin the landscape, they are driven up and down and across creeks, they stress wildlife to the point that they stop breeding. Those are facts, no stereotyping.

Solution, as you suggest: ban OHV off of roads. Problem solved. No more stream damage.

Random camping: no motorized camping out of designated sites within 200m of fish bearing streams. Why not? its pretty much the same rule industry is supposed to follow.

 

Do people want to quad? fine. quad on existing roads, that is what roads are for. Claim you want to see the "great wilderness," as many people put it; shut the engine off at the end of the road and walk. To be blunt, I'm sick and tired of quaders and other OHV users ruining my experience by being thoughtless and destroying the landscape. Anyone else see the motocross rallies on the upper livingstone? how insane is it that that is allowed? those promoters and participants should be fined millions for reclimation of the landscape. i don't mind seeing other people while I'm out, I just don't like arrogant people who think it is their God given right to pee where they please.

 

I've written to MLA's, I've said this on the internet, but there are too many bucks in this type of behavior in AB to change much. Unfortunately, the meat-head mentality prevails.

 

Lie, trailhead said, education only works if they listen. bans along with fines, confiscation and/or jail works when they don't.

[Tako]

Hmmmm. I worked in Edson, and coming from BC, I'd say the quad and rig pig problem is bigger than the Livingstone. You're going to need mega enforcement

[fisher26]

BrownTrout:

 

 

 

Amen!

[snakeman]

Nice post Brown Trout.

I'll always remember my first time fishing Racehorse creek. I got onto the stream at dawn, and enjoyed catching a couple cutts on the nymph. After about 1.5 hours of morning solitude, I was working my way upstream when I heard a growl in the woods behind me. At first I thought "bear!", but then realised the sounds were mechanical. The sound grew progressively louder until a bunch of quadders emerged from around a corner and came blazing up a trail that is near the stream. Anyway, for the rest of the day I heard these guys ripping back and forth along the trail, and needless to say it put a real damper on my first 'wilderness' camping/fishing experience. My family thought it was a real drag too, to drive 2 hours from the city for some peace and quiet, only to see that a bunch of hosers decide they like bringing a piece of the city with them into natural areas. If these guys really want to experience the outdoors, a quad is not the way to do it. Save a couple grand and get some hiking boots and binoculars, or a mountain bike instead. The ATV is one of man's most useless inventions.