Taco Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Whatever Hoss but just show me the science first not just some claim that it's "obvious" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taco Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Tell me something Osprey, is modern timber harvesting deforestation or temporary cover loss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osprey Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Taco, I'm not talking about the science here but about Winston's posts which you stated were not up front. As for whether something is temporary or not it depends on your time frame. A forest cut down now in SW Alberta won't be growing back in my lifetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taco Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Could be but your and my lifetime is still only temporary. I'm talkin' about it's anti harvesting agenda. Mature trees are not only plant matter in the forests, grass, brush and younger trees holds silt in place as well. IIRC roads and unauthorized trails are the biggest contributor to in-stream silting. Star Creek is a UofA research project. To me research leads to better knowledge and understanding, better knowledge and understanding leads to better industry practices Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osprey Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 It sounds like you and Winston are on the same page to some degree. From above: "The carnage left by industry, with the G of A turning a blind eye as they are on Star Creek, has left the land susceptible to further damage by motorized user groups and overgrazing which the G of A supports as it helps blur the damage and gives them an ally." There have been a lot of research projects that are unethical or destructive. Scientists don't always agree and where there is disagreement and the possibility of real harm it seems that the smart thing might be to do nothing. Asking for a moratorium on logging watersheds that contain an endangered species does not seem to be a radical act of eco-terrorism. Taco, what is more important to you, the interests of a few timber companies or healthy populations of cutthroat trout? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taco Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 aha yup 'n bye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Gee, I wonder why it's so damn hard to have an intelligent discussion about anything on a message board. Multiple people and the worlds smartest bull trout all have the same end goal, the protection of native cutthroat streams (though I must questions the bull trout's motive, I really think all he wants to do is eat.) But throw in a difference of opinion on any project and out come the gloves and people dividing into teams (probably mixed my metaphors there, but whatever). I'm not smart enough to know the issues as I have no idea what the "research" goals are. But I can say that I'm no better informed after reading this, though I have a much higher appreciation of the etymology of Bullshit. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smitty Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Well said Rickr. Speaking for myself, I simply wanted some clarity. But you and Osprey are right; let's avoid miring ourselves in internet BS when, essentially, the vast majority of users / readers of this forum fundamentally agree on a core principle of protecting native cutthroat populations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonAndersen Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 And Smitty, you landed on exactly what is wrong with every organization including this forum. Rather than attempting to deal with the issues, the participants wander off attacking each other till the concerned just say "**** it" Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taco Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 No Don that's not quite right. I'll spend plenty of time arguing and discussing with a Don Andersen, a Rickr, a Smitty or even a BobLoblaw or BBT but I'll be gawdamned if I'll spend it with some faceless online handle hiding behind the anmoninity of the internet. Call me old ****in' school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osprey Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 No Don that's not quite right. I'll spend plenty of time arguing and discussing with a Don Andersen, a Rickr, a Smitty or even a BobLoblaw or BBT but I'll be gawdamned if I'll spend it with some faceless online handle hiding behind the anmoninity of the internet. Call me old ****in' school. Well, I guess I'm just not that memorable in person. We have fished together at Golden Pond on Bullshead, Taco. I'm not a faceless online handle but a fisher like you and most others here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonAndersen Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Taco, So argue with the message not the messager. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taco Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Osprey I remember now. Sorry about that but in my defence it seems anymore I forget why I walked to the other side of the room whilst I'm crossing the room. Don... there ain't no damn way I gonna start arguin' with a ****in' pretend fish. And finally I ain't in the mood to get into a "discussion" about the pros and cons of logging, prescribed burns, livestock grazing and it's effects on riparian areas. Tired of the same BS ad nauseam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonAndersen Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Taco, You need to go fishing. Find some BROOKIES to kill. That will help the shack nasties. And further, you going to the FF show in Calgree? Don 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osprey Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I'm glad you remembered that day, Taco. Some really good fish were caught . I'm also upset that for the last 25 years or so the issues you describe have kept coming up. The paradise I knew when Highway 22 south of Longview was a gravel road is a distant memory. The country I fished around the Upper Oldman in the late 80s and early 90s is almost unrecognizable today. The whole area is suffering "death by a thousand cuts" and it makes me bitter and angry and sad. So, yeah, I understand your frustration. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taco Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Don, the winter show is a maybe at this point. And fissin'? Every time it warms up and I'm caught up it seems the wind is howlin'. I was dreamin' up a apache/gila/lahontan expedition but I decided to invest in a duramax crate motor instead........................ next year. Maybe there hope yet, I just received an email from Google Great Britain informin' me that I'm one of 12 winners of 650,000GBP. All I have to do is send my bankin' info to their promotions' department. osprey, Yes I remember that day well. Glad I didn't turn around at the sight of the white caps. It was day I decided that friggin' lakes weren't all that bad. I know what you mean about changes, I've been spending time behind The Gap since 1968 but then again it can be a lot of perspective too. Andy Russell pulled his guided hunts out of that country in the 40's because it was getting to settled and the access way too easy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinstonConfluentus Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 Hi Gang, The news from Star Creek is good. Fortunately, Canfor has seen the folly for what it is and has ceased operations at least until certain concerns are addressed. Not surprisingly, the concerns centre around issues of legislation and policy, or more poignantly, why have both the university and the government turned a blind eye to matters of law and ethics leaving members of the public, and now the logging company, as the last filter in the process? The layout of the cut and both hauls roads do not conform with standards for the recovery plan of WSCT and would not survive a court challenge. There is a story in today's edition of the Crowsnest Pass Herald which provides further details: passherald.ca Sorry, this silly fish still can't figure out how to make the links work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taco Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Must come from the lack of opposing fins http://passherald.ca/archives/150121/index4.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinstonConfluentus Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 Well Gang, The plot thickens. While the reasons are not apparent at this time, the story has been removed from the paper's website. Hmmmmmm... I have a print copy, and oddly enough, there is a half page ad from our government on the same page touting the virtues of the project. Unfortunately, our government claims to have done its due diligence on the project in the add; a claim that can easily be refuted by their own data. They claim "the plan was carefully reviewed by ESRD" and other agencies. This is sad if true as they seem to have missed the fact there are cutties in there, the stream buffers do not meet the requirements of the recovery plan for westslope cutthroat trout and both haul roads contravene the same recovery plan. I could go on, but these items alone ought to have been enough to stop things without having to look at issues of linear disturbance density (roads, trails and the like), and the fact a comprehensive inventory of the basin has yet to be done. Better to cut first and figure out what it affected later I guess. Shameful indeed. It's not that this fish is against resource extraction; its that there is no good excuse for causing harm to the land or the fishery beyond an accident or emergency. I'll keep you all posted on any interesting developments, Winston 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinstonConfluentus Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 Hi Gang, Logging operations have now ceased in the Star Creek watershed. Due to weather and the efforts of many in exposing regulatory concerns, the project is only 65-70% percent complete. At this time the intention is to return during the dry season, (perhaps July, but given the hydrologic nature of the watershed there is no dry season) to finish. This is contrary to the Operating Ground Rules which state all cutting must be done on frozen ground as the primary mitigation tactic for preventing damage to the watercourses. Once the snow clears, I'll get up there and provide a more complete report. Winston 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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