F%#king Oil Companys Did It Again

[Guest bobjones]

if i went a got a 4 litter jug of oil and went to your front yard and poured it all over YOUR grass and lawn , i'm pretty sure you'd be a tad bit pissed

 

How about if you and rickr both owned the yard, and he had a 4l jug of oil that you wanted to buy, but only if he paid another guy to bring it over to your house across the land that you both own. The third guy, Ralph, has carried about 100000 such 4l jugs to you over the past few decades, but this time he twists his ankle while doing it, and spills the jug. Who you gonna blame?

[Guest bobjones]

Yes we all are users, and it is tough to change that. How about using some of the billions of dollars profit to help prevent this to happen. Common it can be prevented but costs would cut into profits.

 

Rickr don't take it so personal, you are not responsible the company you work for IS.

PK

 

Don't kid yourself - costs never come out of profits. Costs come from you and me. The profit is gonna be there regardless.

[Guest NamasteMushroom]

That is the major problem. It's nice to blame Big Oil, but a large percentage of the fault lies with our government for lax rules and regulations.

 

 

 

Mike

 

Indeed, however, big oil and government are so intertwined they are one in the same.

 

No foriegn groups allowed to protest the NGPL, or allowed to attend commitee hearings regarding this project, but foriegn investment in the oil sands, and foriegn companies at commitee hearings -no problem.

 

There is a book that has just been released call Private Empire; Exxon Mobil and American Power (Steve Coll). It should be mandatory reading.

 

Just listen to Redford the other day 'spills don't happen very often'. Ha, how many have happened in the past month...what's the number again....3? ,and how many barrels.....how many??

 

It's all bottom line with government/oil companies - they are no different.

[Guest NamasteMushroom]

How about if you and rickr both owned the yard, and he had a 4l jug of oil that you wanted to buy, but only if he paid another guy to bring it over to your house across the land that you both own. The third guy, Ralph, has carried about 100000 such 4l jugs to you over the past few decades, but this time he twists his ankle while doing it, and spills the jug. Who you gonna blame?

 

Ralph didn't twist his ankle - he was negligent and drunk.

 

Nice metaphor Bob - but somebody is to blame. Neglect is not an accident.

[trailhead]

It seems to be a very passionate topic. I'm sure the pipeline company didn't plan on having it leak. But I'm not sure when that line was built. It could be very old given the fact that it was not in use. If we want to stop this then society as a whole has to change. No more fossil fuel use, we have to convert everything to some type of renewable clean energy. Perhaps solar charged vehicles, someone did fly a solar powered plane from Morocco to Spain, so it's doable. But people will have to slow down, no more pedal to the metal 4X4's haulin ass down the highway. Electric vehicles don't accelerate very quickly and don't have a very high top end. Think that will be acceptable to John Q Public? Meanwhile from what I gather the spill happening during runoff is the best of a bad situation. I feel for the people downstream.

[Smitty]

Ralph didn't twist his ankle - he was negligent and drunk.

 

Nice metaphor Bob - but somebody is to blame. Neglect is not an accident.

 

 

Or, how about "Negligence is not an accident".

 

 

And of course the companies didn't plan this...who would intentionally be negligent and then be on the hook for the mess, the costs, the clean-up, and the bad PR?

 

Smitty

[Guest Sundancefisher]

How about if you and rickr both owned the yard, and he had a 4l jug of oil that you wanted to buy, but only if he paid another guy to bring it over to your house across the land that you both own. The third guy, Ralph, has carried about 100000 such 4l jugs to you over the past few decades, but this time he twists his ankle while doing it, and spills the jug. Who you gonna blame?

 

Very interesting anology. I very much like it and I think we see eye to eye.

 

As to other posters, this is an emotional topic for many and I don't see anyone making light of the spill. I get the sense everyone wishes it did not happen.

 

Some people come across as thinking that all oil and gas activity should cease in the Province (because no system can be make perfect) while others say if it was negligence, the company should pay and if it was an accident the learnings should help prevent it from happening again or significantly reduce it. No one is saying there are zero consequences needed.

 

Everyone agrees that it needs to be cleaned up fast.

 

There are plenty of regulations in place and in fact Alberta has some of the strictest regulations in the World. Can companies do better... Likely yes and they are trying daily. Companies can't lie to the government about leaks...there is not only tons of reporting but legally very, very bad for not just companies...but Executives of companies. Jail can result...not just huge fines and ERCB enforcement.

 

I understand the concern completely. There were lots of upset people from the train spill on Wabamun. Should we shut down all trains in Alberta...because with humans not being perfect...another accident will happen eventually. It is important to have the emotional aspect and that is one primary reason why the regulations are so strict in Alberta compared to elsewhere. We hold industry to a very high standard and when problems happen, there is a lot of resources mobilized.

 

Logging has been bad for Alberta. To this day the pulp mills pump thousands of gallons of dioxin ladden effluent into rivers. Regulations allow them to increase release of pollutants into rivers by dilution factors versus tonnage. Increase the volume of water to mix more pollution with...

 

Logging has caused stream erosion. Many areas are slow to be replanted. Bridges/Culverts stopping fish migration. Roads increasing fishing pressure to pristine areas. Clear cuts destroy the areas recreational value. Mixed forest ecosytems destroyed via plantation style planting. Elk, moose, deer and caribou reduction due to increased predation by both hunters and wolves that can travel corridors easier. Logging is way, way less of regulated industry when compared to oil and gas.

 

While a spill has an effect...it is not as long lasting as the dioxin mats on the bottom of the Athabasca River.

 

If people go around saying everyone has to be perfect...it needs to start in the mirror with you coming up with ways to make everything around you perfect. Work, job, neighbours, following all laws and never making any mistakes.

 

In fact...it is impossible because no matter how badly you want it...all people are human and prone to making a mistake now and again....including pilots and mechanics and airport security etc.

 

But we all likely agree strongly on one thing...we all want whatever is reasonable and prudent to try to be done to prevent all leaks...and if it happens respond quickly, appropriately and effectively to minimize the damage and make reparations and mitigations to the affected areas afterwards.

 

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Don't kid yourself - costs never come out of profits. Costs come from you and me. The profit is gonna be there regardless.

 

...And the profits margin is not very large averaged over the oil and gas industry...so you are very much correct.

[Guest NamasteMushroom]

While a spill has an effect...it is not as long lasting as the dioxin mats on the bottom of the Athabasca River.

 

If people go around saying everyone has to be perfect...it needs to start in the mirror with you coming up with ways to make everything around you perfect. Work, job, neighbours, following all laws and never making any mistakes.

 

In fact...it is impossible because no matter how badly you want it...all people are human and prone to making a mistake now and again....including pilots and mechanics and airport security etc.

 

No, the damage from spills doesn't last .........tell that to the people in Valdez, and New Orleans.

 

The logging industry is a seperate entity; sorry, but saying look at 'how bad they are' to prop another industries poor environmental record is ridiculous.

 

If there were planes going down in Alberta at the rate there is pipeline accidents something more severe would happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ricinus]

Very interesting anology. I very much like it and I think we see eye to eye.

 

There are plenty of regulations in place and in fact Alberta has some of the strictest regulations in the World. Can companies do better... Likely yes and they are trying daily. Companies can't lie to the government about leaks...there is not only tons of reporting but legally very, very bad for not just companies...but Executives of companies. Jail can result...not just huge fines and ERCB enforcement

 

Sun,

 

Do you really believe that an Oil Exec would get jail time in Alberta? Cripes, Redford is already trying to spin this. As for lying to the Govt, probably not- they just won't tell them ala Syncrude. Sorry, Govt and industry have just gotten too intertwined .

 

 

 

Mike

 

[Guest NamasteMushroom]

...And the profits margin is not very large averaged over the oil and gas industry...so you are very much correct.

 

Indeed, and Exxon Mobil isn't the wealthiest corporation in the world. I mean really, who in their right mind would invest or go into the oil business, like, you'll never make a cent.

 

Red lining on the BS metre.

[McLeod]

 

Not an oil expert by any means but.. If a pipeline is 50 years olds and it 's under a river..

Can I conclude that with corosion , heat /cold , movement in the ground due to water pressure , possible fault lines ect that pipelines in these locations are more likely to crack and leak then those under just a piece of land ?

[Guest Sundancefisher]

No, the damage from spills doesn't last .........tell that to the people in Valdez, and New Orleans.

 

The logging industry is a seperate entity; sorry, but saying look at 'how bad they are' to prop another industries poor environmental record is ridiculous.

 

If there were planes going down in Alberta at the rate there is pipeline accidents something more severe would happen.

 

Your ignoring the comparison to logging is akin to saying this spill is the same as Valdez and New Orleans. Another example of emotion blowing it out of proportion.

 

Everyone says it is bad and it needs to be cleaned up and fast. The oil patch does not have a "poor" record.

 

All I can do is speak from experience both having worked in the environmental business and in the oil and gas business.

 

Nothing makes a company freak out and pour money and resources into a problem more than an environmental problem. Employees can be fired for causing it...and can be rewarded for preventing it. There are many checks and balances in place to stop it from happening and the cost of a spill is magnitudes more than fixing it before it happens and the horrible publicity makes the Executives loose tons of sleep.

 

All I can say is trust me when I state that these issues are never ever taken as trivial or laughed about in board rooms or ignored for other budgetary items.

 

In fact where I work...all meetings start with safety and environmental updates with a strong emphasis on correcting and preventing problems.

 

as for the logging and pulp and paper industry...this forum sure is ignoring that mounting environmental pollution debt for our children's children.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Sun,

 

Do you really believe that an Oil Exec would get jail time in Alberta? Cripes, Redford is already trying to spin this. As for lying to the Govt, probably not- they just won't tell them ala Syncrude. Sorry, Govt and industry have just gotten too intertwined .

 

 

 

Mike

 

 

If an oil executive was stupid enough to ignore the regulations, was in breach and grossly negligent and tried to hide and cover it up...you betcha I think the government would love to set an example. The Conservatives are now center liberals in social ideology.

 

Government and industry butt heads all the time but they also try hard to work together in a cooperative and collaborative manner still with each others agenda and interests at heart. I know for a fact...cause I have personally sat on committees...both sides don't always see eye to eye.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Indeed, and Exxon Mobil isn't the wealthiest corporation in the world. I mean really, who in their right mind would invest or go into the oil business, like, you'll never make a cent.

 

Red lining on the BS metre.

 

I have educated others on the facts surrounding the profit margins for big companies. Look up on line what Exxon's 1, 5 and 10 year profit margins have been...but also look at the industry as a whole.

 

but alas...you will likely not look...so here is some info.

 

 

 

http://ycharts.com/companies/XOM/profit_margin

 

 

Exxon 7.62% 2012

 

Over past 5 years.

 

Minimum 5.31% Jun 2009

Maximum 10.77% Sep 2008

Average 8.27%

 

Any comment?

 

 

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Not an oil expert by any means but.. If a pipeline is 50 years olds and it 's under a river..

Can I conclude that with corosion , heat /cold , movement in the ground due to water pressure , possible fault lines ect that pipelines in these locations are more likely to crack and leak then those under just a piece of land ?

 

 

Pipelines should be smart pigged to test for weak spots and corosion issues. Hopefully they did. Some pipelines can be lined...others just need to be decommissioned and new ones built.

 

This is not an oil company by the way folks...this is a midstreamer. Plains business model is running facilities.

 

http://www.plainsmidstream.com/

 

They don't drill wells.

[Guest Wrecker]

I have educated others on the facts surrounding the profit margins for big companies. Look up on line what Exxon's 1, 5 and 10 year profit margins have been...but also look at the industry as a whole.

 

but alas...you will likely not look...so here is some info.

 

 

 

http://ycharts.com/companies/XOM/profit_margin

 

 

Exxon 7.62% 2012

 

Over past 5 years.

 

Minimum 5.31% Jun 2009

Maximum 10.77% Sep 2008

Average 8.27%

 

Any comment?

 

And what do they cashflow? 8.27% net of their top line is a shitload of cash.

 

Any comment?

[Guest Sundancefisher]

And what do they cashflow? 8.27% net of their top line is a shitload of cash.

 

Any comment?

 

What point are you trying to make?

 

A company making 7.62% profit in 2012 is not anything to dance about unless you are moving out of a savings account. It is respectable as far as blue chip investments are concerned but it is far from spectacular.

 

Big companies have big sales and big expenses. The bottom line is they are not making ridiculous profits. Simple.

[reevesr1]

Exxon 7.62% 2012

 

Over past 5 years.

 

Minimum 5.31% Jun 2009

Maximum 10.77% Sep 2008

Average 8.27%

 

Any comment?

 

Apple 29.6%

 

Walmart is 3%

 

Oh, and BP was -30% or so a couple of years ago.....should have been more negative.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Ricinus]

Regardless who is at fault or if anybody is to blame, I think Enbridge's Northern Gateway moved a little closer to the proverbial toilet flush.

 

Mike

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Regardless who is at fault or if anybody is to blame, I think Enbridge's Northern Gateway moved a little closer to the proverbial toilet flush.

 

Mike

 

I doubt it. The pipeline is good for Canada...built and maintained properly it will be just fine. Trick is to be part of the solution not the problem so valid interveners should be thinking about what they want improved to prevent or mitigate problems. I am sick of selling oil to the US at a steep discount to world markets just because of lack of take away capacity and options.

 

And I agree like everyone...it better be built to the highest professional standards. Technology has come along way since these 20, 30 and 40 year old pipes that are having problems were built...they better use it wisely.

[Ricinus]

I think you're wrong. You can cite improvements all day, but the perception of an accident waiting to happen has been established and considering the pipeline is of little value to B.C. why should they take the risk. If you're sick of selling oil to the US why not promote a Canadian refinery to process and ship a finished product south.

 

Mike

 

 

 

I doubt it. The pipeline is good for Canada...built and maintained properly it will be just fine. Trick is to be part of the solution not the problem so valid interveners should be thinking about what they want improved to prevent or mitigate problems. I am sick of selling oil to the US at a steep discount to world markets just because of lack of take away capacity and options.

 

And I agree like everyone...it better be built to the highest professional standards. Technology has come along way since these 20, 30 and 40 year old pipes that are having problems were built...they better use it wisely.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

I think you're wrong. You can cite improvements all day, but the perception of an accident waiting to happen has been established and considering the pipeline is of little value to B.C. why should they take the risk. If you're sick of selling oil to the US why not promote a Canadian refinery to process and ship a finished product south.

 

Mike

 

Even with a refinery you are still fighting the same pricing problem. What you are suggesting is very much NIMBY. Don't want a pipeline in my backyard but let someone else get a refinery in theirs. In the end BC will get tons of jobs and nice tariff revenue as well as accelerate development of the Horn River etc. as LNG follows suit. BC's industry will leap forward in status and jobs are worth their weight in gold these days.

 

You could be right...about not approving but it would be the wrong thing to do.

[Guest NamasteMushroom]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/stor...ll-animals.html

 

Maybe this summer, instead of fishing, Sundance et al. should have PD days up on the Red Deer ala mop and bucket.

 

And don't try to blame the users;we pay for it.

[Guest NamasteMushroom]

Apple 29.6%

 

Walmart is 3%

 

Oh, and BP was -30% or so a couple of years ago.....should have been more negative.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/BUSINESS/07/26...dley/index.html

 

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/BP_(BP)/Data/Gross_Profit

 

Good one Rickr, you must have went to the same training sessions as the BP execs, or the Sundance School of Spin Doctors.