Guide's Association Yay/nay, & How Do We Start?

[pkk]

Illegal guiding is not the general publics problem. Guides manage yourselves. Nothing worse than being confronted or accused of illegal guiding by a guide on a river. What, do they feel they are protecting the river? NO, they are protecting their best interests, of which they don't pay anything for themselves. So who is the thief? Who the f___ do they think they are?

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

Im with you PKK and Riley, I cant wait to get my own drift boat and fill it with my friends every weekend. I sure as hell am not a guide and never want to be, i want to make some real money in life. Guides should be charged an environmental tax for the almost 100% (even through it aint that much) profit that they make and some times under the table. In my opinion the guides associations work on their own interests and not that of the river or the rest of the public.

 

Q. Was is the guides associations in BC that pushed for the classified waters? or was this bureaucratic profiteering? or environmental biologists? not being sarcastic, i really dont know and would like to.

[bcubed]

100% profit..... Really? That'd be sweet

[dutchie]

Sorry if I pissed off all my guiding buddies.

PK

 

LMAO

Pete

you never pissed me off bud , like you in certain ways , my opinion is this whole thread is nothing but a bunch of crock , just some still Harp 'ing away at the moon , and i'll just leave it at that , take way way to long to write it out and i have much better things to do at xmas time ,

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

gas and reduced shuttle rates are a far cry from the overhead a real company has to deal with bcube. ie. restaurants have to charge a minimum of triple the food price just to cover overhead and then if they want/need profit on top of that.

[bcubed]

So it's 100% profit, as long as you dont count all the costs. Gotcha

[DaveJensen]

100% profit. Love it. Any professional guide has to work 30 days just to break even if they are properly insured, has good working gear, boat, vehicle, proper marketing, etc. After that, the profit point is 2/3 of std full guide rate. But that's based upon the $500 / day. Many guides are contract, paid $350 to $425 from the outfitter/shop. Those are the plain, hard facts of guiding. And it's no 200 day season. Run off, big rain, big wind days, cancellations, etc take it down to an honest 100 - 120 day season in Alberta. Which is why, if you do the math, no guide ever makes more than about $35K/yr going full out and doing up sale trips. Sure, hidden in there is you get a few ff type product perks, but those are the realities unless you grow things past the guide stage.

 

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

i never said it was 100%, but that would be nice. As for the weather, its not my fault you chose a "profession" that is weather based....sad thing is you can make more than that detailing cars.

[bhurt]

100% profit. Love it. Any professional guide has to work 30 days just to break even if they are properly insured, has good working gear, boat, vehicle, proper marketing, etc. After that, the profit point is 2/3 of std full guide rate. But that's based upon the $500 / day. Many guides are contract, paid $350 to $425 from the outfitter/shop. Those are the plain, hard facts of guiding. And it's no 200 day season. Run off, big rain, big wind days, cancellations, etc take it down to an honest 100 - 120 day season in Alberta. Which is why, if you do the math, no guide ever makes more than about $35K/yr going full out and doing up sale trips. Sure, hidden in there is you get a few ff type product perks, but those are the realities unless you grow things past the guide stage.

Dave,

 

Just curious but what about taxes and tips, if waiters/waitress and bartenders have to claim taxes on these items would a guide also be responsible for claim these taxes.

 

Also I would really like to know how many guides out there actually do pay their taxes I do know of some guides or so called guides that do not pay taxes and take the money and put it in their pockets.

[ÜberFly]

Good points Brad!

 

Dave,

 

Just curious but what about taxes and tips, if waiters/waitress and bartenders have to claim taxes on these items would a guide also be responsible for claim these taxes.

 

Also I would really like to know how many guides out there actually do pay their taxes I do know of some guides or so called guides that do not pay taxes and take the money and put it in their pockets.

 

[bhurt]

Oh and I forgot to mentioned I have tlked to some guide from BC (This is not the place to be mentioning their company names) that branged to me this summer that they can come here and guide and not have to pay any taxes what so ever, and they tell their customers if they are stopped to say that they are friends so that the guide does not have to buy a lience just his clinets.

 

How is this fair to me, I work very hard every day take shiz non stop from customers pay my taxes while someone not even from this province can make money in Alberta and then run away without paying anything back, and we in alberta get accused of beeing greedy.

 

Sorry for the ranting but this but it is something that really bugs me, people whine and complain about this and that say they are not making any money, well then I guess you should just go out and get a diffrent job then, no one is holding a gun to your head and saying you have to guide it is your choice, so live with it or get a new job.

[DaveJensen]

Brad - paying taxes - how many bus boys pay taxes on tips? I recall working at Maxwell Taylor's on Calgary Tr in Edm back 1988 - 1992 making $300 on Fri & Sat nights. Hauling $500 a weekend in tips 20+ years ago at 16 - 17 years old was pretty good. Was I going to pay taxes? Nope. But, was I looking to buy a house, a new car, etc, things that needed a credit history and a proof of income statement? No. Was I supporting a family? No. Was I concerned that something I did/didn't do was going to possibly impact someone else as a busboy? No. But this wasn't full time, it was in a different age of society when taxes on tips weren't looked at with as much scrutiny as today, etc. When it comes to guiding - some do it with the same mentality and it works for them until they want to buy a house, car, etc, or expand in business with a partenership or buy a lodge, fly shop, etc, where income statements and proof of business comes into play. How many are so short sighted as to not see this or to not see that insurances are vital and the ramifications of not having it are devastating to all involved in things that can happen in this business? I suspect any guide not charging at least $400 a day as a guide is cutting corners somewhere, or has a good off season job that affords them to subsidize their love of guiding.

The truth is that a guide association is not going to fix any of the above or curb illegal guiding. Here in NZ, our good friend is a director for F & G as well as the NZFFGA. The NZ guide association is one of the strongest lobbies out there yet Aussie guides run trips non stop, illegally. Can you get insurance coverage if you are doing something illegally? And on and on it goes.

Again, and I was thinking of this again yesterday on the water, the main reason that so few guides last 5 years is that it is hard work, you deal with a lot of personalities, the $ aren't great, and the responsibilities for someone else are huge - there's a lot of stress in hosting someone's prized vacation time and making it about them and not about you (as the guide) is very difficult for most people. Add everything up and few people bother to stick it out when it takes 5 to 10 years to finally BUILD UP a business to possibly, finally earn that $35K a year. Remember, there's almost "0" chance you'll make that much in your first 5 years. Likely 1/3 that for the first many. Maybe by year 7 or 8 your income statement will get there, likely longer as depreciation and initial start up capital needs to be in place. Do auto detailers take 7 or 8 years of apprenticeship income to build up to $35K a year?

[bhurt]

Brad - paying taxes - how many bus boys pay taxes on tips? I recall working at Maxwell Taylor's on Calgary Tr in Edm back 1988 - 1992 making $300 on Fri & Sat nights. Hauling $500 a weekend in tips 20+ years ago at 16 - 17 years old was pretty good. Was I going to pay taxes? Nope. But, was I looking to buy a house, a new car, etc, things that needed a credit history and a proof of income statement? No. Was I supporting a family? No. Was I concerned that something I did/didn't do was going to possibly impact someone else as a busboy? No. But this wasn't full time, it was in a different age of society when taxes on tips weren't looked at with as much scrutiny as today, etc. When it comes to guiding - some do it with the same mentality and it works for them until they want to buy a house, car, etc, or expand in business with a partenership or buy a lodge, fly shop, etc, where income statements and proof of business comes into play. How many are so short sighted as to not see this or to not see that insurances are vital and the ramifications of not having it are devastating to all involved in things that can happen in this business? I suspect any guide not charging at least $400 a day as a guide is cutting corners somewhere, or has a good off season job that affords them to subsidize their love of guiding.

The truth is that a guide association is not going to fix any of the above or curb illegal guiding. Here in NZ, our good friend is a director for F & G as well as the NZFFGA. The NZ guide association is one of the strongest lobbies out there yet Aussie guides run trips non stop, illegally. Can you get insurance coverage if you are doing something illegally? And on and on it goes.

Again, and I was thinking of this again yesterday on the water, the main reason that so few guides last 5 years is that it is hard work, you deal with a lot of personalities, the $ aren't great, and the responsibilities for someone else are huge - there's a lot of stress in hosting someone's prized vacation time and making it about them and not about you (as the guide) is very difficult for most people. Add everything up and few people bother to stick it out when it takes 5 to 10 years to finally BUILD UP a business to possibly, finally earn that $35K a year. Remember, there's almost "0" chance you'll make that much in your first 5 years. Likely 1/3 that for the first many. Maybe by year 7 or 8 your income statement will get there, likely longer as depreciation and initial start up capital needs to be in place. Do auto detailers take 7 or 8 years of apprenticeship income to build up to $35K a year?

Dave,

 

Thanks for the info and I agree a guiding assoication will not fix things, it was more of a rant then anything, and by the way I work retail and have had the same job for the last 9 years and I make just under 40k a year before taxes (and that is also working 12 month a year 8 hours a day 5 days a week, and I didn't not make the money I make now that is due to beeing with the company for 9 years, I belive my first 3 years I was lucky to make over 20k before taxes), and I deal with alot of personailities also, in fact my customers are extremly demanding and I have alot of times tight deadlines and I also manage alot of kids, wanna talk about stress come do my job for a year and then I think you would have a diffrent perspective.

 

I do also belive guides work very hard but so do alot of other people, my whole point is that people cry about this and that but at the end of the day it was their choice to be in the feild that they work and no one made them do it.

[DaveJensen]

Brad - was refering to a previous poster about the auto detailing, not you. I suspect that you have many entertaining tales in your line of work as we do taking care of our guests, just in a different setting.

"I do also belive guides work very hard but so do alot of other people, my whole point is that people cry about this and that but at the end of the day it was their choice to be in the feild that they work and no one made them do it." - The understanding of that, that's the whole secret to life, in all areas, ain't it? Now, if we could just all wear pro-active glasses...

 

 

[FraserN]

I completely agree with bcube. Close the Bow from bearspaw to 22x for the winter. The fish need a long break from all the pressure. I dont fish the bow in the winter, but with the decent, recent weather, I have been tempted. Also, I have fished near many brown trout spawning redds in fish creek park, unintentionally in late october. The redds are everywhere at that time. Hence the need for the closure.

[mrmomar]

Interesting topic. As a passionate recreational fisherman, I'd like to offer my educated opinion.

 

I believe guides should pay an annual licensing fee. Why?

 

1. Because guides are profiting from a public resource without having to reinvest anything. This is unethical in my opinion. A share of profits from public resources should be channeled back to resource management.
2. A license would ensure that guides have the proper corporate insurance, first aid training, and other professional requirements such as exams. If someone is going to complain about the overhead costs, imagine the outcome when they get sued by a client for negligence and have no protection?
3. Fees will reduce unscrupulous "guides" who work primarily under the table and do not pay proper federal / provincial taxes.
4. A guiding association would be well positioned play a proactive role in sustainable management of the resource by acting as a lobby group, watchdog and assisting SRD in monitoring the health of the fishery.

 

It's time to stop acting like cowboys and start acting like legitimate professionals. Will fees affect bottom lines for guides? In the short term, it may harm some guides, particularly those who are not wholly dedicated as professionals. In the long term, it will help those that are dedicated as professionals.

[Hawgstoppah]

Now we're really getting to the guts of how much pimping and guiding are the same!

 

Haven't seen one comment re: the ethical concern of raping a public resource without giving anything back.

 

I'll admit to not having read the whole thread yet but this point bugs me a bit. What about the dedicated few who do continuously give back by way of donations to things like streamwatch, personal time at cleanups, taking a garbage bag out with them on trips to clean up rivers, weed pulls, stream work with T.U., etc. I know it may bother you to hear this but the vast majority of guides are some of the BEST stewards of the resource (if they are in it for the right reasons). I do agree with some of the points made though, about guys coming out of the wordwork, knowing very little and calling themselves guides (and doing nothing to help the fisheries). Those guys do need to be controlled in some way, wether it be an associated or gov't regulation. I don't really have any opinions on how to make that happen but I see that the thought process is well underway on this thread.

[ÜberFly]

Brian,

 

What about those guides from BC or Montana?! Can you guarantee that they too are doing the same as you?! Not bloody likely! So I would say that a lot of this negative sentiment is going towards that specific situation - I mean I've heard you "talk" about the situation on the Castle with out of provice plates!! As a guide in that area, that's gotta bug the heck out of you!!

 

P

 

I'll admit to not having read the whole thread yet but this point bugs me a bit. What about the dedicated few who do continuously give back by way of donations to things like streamwatch, personal time at cleanups, taking a garbage bag out with them on trips to clean up rivers, weed pulls, stream work with T.U., etc. I know it may bother you to hear this but the vast majority of guides are some of the BEST stewards of the resource (if they are in it for the right reasons). I do agree with some of the points made though, about guys coming out of the wordwork, knowing very little and calling themselves guides (and doing nothing to help the fisheries). Those guys do need to be controlled in some way, wether it be an associated or gov't regulation. I don't really have any opinions on how to make that happen but I see that the thought process is well underway on this thread.