Lake Sundance

[beedhead]

I say we string up this so-called poacher and have are selves a good old-fashioned whoopin'!! How about a good ol' public flogging with a 14' spey rod? YEEHAW!!!

 

LOL...That be your style you Redneck... ...Kiddin on both ends mind ya.. ..

 

[Neil Waugh]

The "regulations" of which you speak are not "laws" and when you and your board start pretending that they are is where the trouble starts.

My understand is your "poacher" (even though he isn't) paid his fees in good faith. You may have a claim against him in small claims court to recover the cost of the extra trout. But the idea that you can somehow impose a draconian one year ban is absurd.

And by the way, why is it that anyone who slightly disagrees with the Stalinist-only-one-point-of-view-is-valid nature of this board is outed as a "troll"?

Which sounds a lot like how the Lake Sundance resident's association views itself. The North American wildlife ethic (as opposed to the European-Lake Sundance model) is that fish and game belong to the people. And it's governments who make the laws.

Not some spooky "residents' association."

Like I said, I've got a lot of sympathy for the guy.

 

[Hawgstoppah]

I always thought you had some weird opinions Mr Waugh, but seriosuly, how can you side with a f**ckin THEIF?? wether it be poaching or not. The rules governing that body of water are the rules... period. Wether they are LAWS or not, abide by them.

 

Or maybe your the kind of guys who pushes past everyone in a line to get to the front, becuase there's no "law" against doing that is there? Makes you look like an azz though.... Oh... never mind you've done that well enough already here. Good to know we have your type in our media!! :$*%&:

[Guest Sundancefisher]

The "regulations" of which you speak are not "laws" and when you and your board start pretending that they are is where the trouble starts.

My understand is your "poacher" (even though he isn't) paid his fees in good faith. You may have a claim against him in small claims court to recover the cost of the extra trout. But the idea that you can somehow impose a draconian one year ban is absurd.

And by the way, why is it that anyone who slightly disagrees with the Stalinist-only-one-point-of-view-is-valid nature of this board is outed as a "troll"?

Which sounds a lot like how the Lake Sundance resident's association views itself. The North American wildlife ethic (as opposed to the European-Lake Sundance model) is that fish and game belong to the people. And it's governments who make the laws.

Not some spooky "residents' association."

Like I said, I've got a lot of sympathy for the guy.

 

Neil...well...you are who you are. Words can not describe it. Insulting everyone. If you are a writer...try being more eloquent. I can tell from your position you clearly do not understand the issue nor care to grasp it with any common sense. You seem fixated on public versus private. You seem to have a soft spot for not being hard on poachers. I don't consider you a troll nor your comments but I do see you as unable to see multiple view points through tunnel vision glasses. I sincerely would like to understand you.

 

Your comment regarding regulations versus laws is out of left center field. Again you seem to be confusing public and private. I have never said our regulations were laws. I gather you tend to lean to the anarchy side so long as everyone agrees with your position also. No one is also saying that our board should run F&W.

 

You have now clearly stated you feel sorry for someone who poaches or "take or appropriate something unfairly or illegally". How on Earth can you stand on a pedestal and call us Stalinists and say that a democratically elected board that has to manage the lake and it's resources fairly for the community can not punish a guy (extremely clearly warned) for stealing? Stalinist's are communists who believe that everything belongs to every body and first come first serve rush to get what you can before the next guy takes it. That is what you are saying not us. We are saying that rules are in place to allow for the orderly harvest of the trout and spreading out the recreational benefits to the whole community if they so chose to fish. We see the lake and it's recreational opportunities such as swimming, skating, canoeing, kayaking, boating, fishing, tobogganing etc. as all pieces is a large pie. We can not let a small group of thieves or vandals or any one that wishes to damage these opportunities for the majority of the community to win over our common sense principles. Then they only serve to destroy a piece of the pie. We wish to have the lake remain whole. These 15 "spooky" people (and I wish you called me spooky during Halloween cause I had a lame costume) of various backgrounds...actually only one of whom is a fishermen all feel that stealing is wrong regardless as to how you package and dress it up in a definition. Is it just that you see trout (paid for by the Lake) as different than a life jacket paid for by the lake? How can you compare us to Europe where they took public waters and privatized them? Lake Sundance was a field that was dug up and made into a man made lake.

 

Anyways...we can always agree to disagree and enough said. You have very differing views from the average Albertan when it comes to theft/poaching and yet provide no clear basis for why you are feeling "sorry" for a thief. in the future, please visit someone else's thread or at least provide some better context for your position rather than name calling, false statements and expressions of superior morality. Either that or just say "This is my position...can't explain why...never will explain why". People want to understand and in the absence of a logical and reasonable explanation, they get frustrated with your intent.

 

Wow Neil...I can only shake my head in confusion now.

 

Sun

[Neil Waugh]

Your alleged "poacher/thief" is in reality a Sundance resident who signed a contract regarding the common areas of the development. Which the lake, I take it, is one.

Until you can show us the powers granted the board and the undertakings of the residents it's hard to tell whether the guy is in violation of his contract or not. Since he paid his fees in good faith I suspect the answer is NOT.

And then only a judge can decide that. Not some arbitrary residents association.

On a much broader context I can see why some guides on this thread are all in favor of punishing the "poacher" because guides thrive on exclusivity which, of course, they can sell. Just like Lake Sundance.

And the outfit that advertizes on this board that's marketing their exclusive "club" on the Bow through the Blackfoot reserve. Or that access-fee-charging "ranch" on the Oldman.

This is the fundamental reason who fishing guides should be regulated - and taxed - in this province. It's the people's resource and they should pay for exploiting it for profit.

The Sundance argument is the same one that the elk farmers used when they got some of the knuckle-draggers in the PC caucus to attempt to push through those Bambi-in-a-barrel hunt preserves a few years back.

Once you start privatizing fish and game resources and make it privileged and exclusionary that's when the rot sets in.

Trout Unlimited chapters in the US (as opposed to our timid organization) spend a lot of time, money and members effort fighting the privatization of trout fisheries.

Like I said POWER - and TROUT - to the PEOPLE!!!

[ÜberFly]

Interesting that this fellow decide to poach (steal) a few extra trout when he had free reign on as many perch that he could want (and eat, store, sell if he wanted, LoL)... IMHO, I'd say perch are way better eating then "raised in captivity" trout!!

 

P

[Guest Sundancefisher]

The Sundance argument is the same one that the elk farmers used when they got some of the knuckle-draggers in the PC caucus to attempt to push through those Bambi-in-a-barrel hunt preserves a few years back.

Once you start privatizing fish and game resources and make it privileged and exclusionary that's when the rot sets in.

Trout Unlimited chapters in the US (as opposed to our timid organization) spend a lot of time, money and members effort fighting the privatization of trout fisheries.

Like I said POWER - and TROUT - to the PEOPLE!!!

 

Neil...shake your head man...these trout NEVER belonged to the people nor are we an Elk Farm. Neil...stop trying to make your point by changing the debate subject. Privately constructed lake, privately grown fish, privately stocked is different that what you are saying...knock knock...are you there Neil? If you beef is with a misguided fear that a million man made private lakes will be constructed and ruin your hunting areas...well...financially it is impossible. These lakes are expensive to build, expensive to maintain and require a large number of people to support it with fees. Also why bring guiding into this? Again...keep on the subject man...focus...focus...watch the corkie and not the butterflies!

 

The benefit of a lake community transcends fishing as it becomes an extremely family friendly community in which the lake becomes a focal point of very fond memories. If your beef is with some weird sense of loss of entitlement...well then shake your head. While you are entitled to buy a home here, you are NOT entitled to do what you want with the lake and it's resources. Think common sense man. There is a covenant against your land and title and home that gives your rights to use the recreational opportunities within the scope and rules and regulations as set out by the Board of Directors. Anyone taking exception to the rules can come and complain at the annual general meeting (or send an email) and ask to be included in the vote to become a director. Out of 3500 households...usually 30 show up of which 15 were past directors. People come usually out of curiosity, sometimes due to a personal complaint about noise or garbage or concerns over teen aged behavior but 99.9% of the community seems perfectly happy with the goings on. Thieves and vandals and miscreants will probably jump on your side of the argument Neil but...hey...you can have them no problem.

 

You have a picture in your mind which goes against common sense and normal thinking on not just this board but others as well. You are 1 out of a 100 Neil. I give you credit for uniqueness in opinions. Neil...please don't insult the board and it's members and their financial supporters. It does nothing to your argument but let it appear you are losing and trying desperately to lash out with insults. It is not becoming a "professional" writer and will lead to you causing this thread to be closed unnecessarily.

 

I see now you are trying to bring politics into a discussion on stealing also. Please don't. It is just an attempt to pad your fading arguments and position. I could care less if you are a NDP in Lilberal clothing or a Stalinist in Republican garb. As long as you fish and bring some snacks...come on down for a visit.

 

As for privatizing public waters...there are probably 4000 members on this board or so. I would say that 4001 would agree to NO privatization. Your arguments continue to be disjointed and hard to follow logically. Let's clear your mind up a bit and lay down facts and try and focus you on the point at hand.

 

1. Sundance Lake is Man made...never ever being public waters. If anything a lake like this is a 100% benefit to the public waters. It teaches proper fishing and releasing techniques. It removes pressure from native waters. It teaches people proper respect for the regulations and the rules. Kids seeing guys getting busted for poaching will go a long ways in education.

2. No public funds go into the development or stocking or maintenance of this lake. You tax dollars are safe Neil.

3. The Board of Directors is democratically elected each year and currently anyone that wants in can get on as this is a volunteer position in which people GIVE BACK to the community Neil. Their are no selfish people on the board. If there was...the other 14 votes renders their useless.

4. A vast majority of community residents have commented that the regulations and fishing has been a very, very positive thing. More people than ever were seen fishing again this year. That is a good thing and a bad thing. Great people are fishing...bad insofar as poaching can significantly impact our efforts to make this a great fishery.

5. People are notified by letter of the regulations, they are found on the website, there is a bulletin board with regs posted at the entrance gate, there was a handout to each member fishing about the regulations.

6. This guy was warned clearly and new the rules. He knew so well in fact that he not only hid his behavior from the staff to elude detection of his poaching activities but he also engaged in hiding the trout in his clothing when he knew he was getting checked on the way out the gate

7. Whether you call it stealing or poaching he is being greedy and disrespectful towards the rights and rules of the whole community. Power to the people can apply here to but anarchy can not prevail in any system of governance.

8. Argue all you want but the covenants on title clearly state that the board of directors sets the rules and regulations and access for the lake. For instance if you fail to pay your fees,you will be taken to court, ordered to pay plus fines, plus the lakes court costs. NOBODY wins other than the lake association.

9. Society does not condone stealing regardless and sets laws and regulations in place accordingly. F&W define stealing of fish and wildlife as poaching but still by Neil's admission the fish and wildlife resources are the property of all. Still the illegal harvest by definition can be termed poaching and stealing from the masses. Punishment versus deterrent is a balancing act at best but one we feel is fair given the circumstances. Also please note that 100% of the anglers are not poaching...probably more like 6 are doing it in a significant way. Unfortunately your position is to let that continue. That shows others that the trout are being taken unfairly and they need their fair share. Then they also start to poach. Anarchy then rains...fishing becomes a problem rather than a benefit. Everyone loses...

10. Neil hates private man made lakes and wishes to reward this guy for stealing fish...good on you Neil. I understand you well. You win the debate.

 

Question. Should this guy be allowed to do what he wants to the detriment of all other residents? If you make the leap of faith that we are allowed to ban him...do you still disagree.

 

Have fun Neil. Keep up the good work.

 

Sun

 

P.S. As for the alleged comment...he was caught red handed by me and two other staff members. The tail of the trout in his jacket was sticking up while standing beside another. Guys like this..being this sneaky are not one time only offenders. In fact he was reported the day before for doing the same thing but the office could not see where he was hiding the trout. Didn't think someone would stick a fish in their closing. Catching him will put a big dent into having trout left for others to catch and eat if they so chose. Hopefully it will serve as a deterrent for him and others.

[headscan]

Like I said POWER - and TROUT - to the PEOPLE!!!

Sundance is a man-made lake. If it were a natural water body I might agree with you to an extent, but it isn't.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Sundance is a man-made lake. If it were a natural water body I might agree with you to an extent, but it isn't.

 

Strange how a topic went from being about a guy caught breaking the rules and keeping over his limit to a talk on.

 

1. Who paid to build the lake

2. Elk Farming

3. Conservative political agendas

4. European fishing regulations

5. Communism

6. Privatization of fisheries

7. Website definitions of poaching

8. Anarchy and chaos theory

9. Breaking regulations versus laws

10. Jurisdictional legal authority

 

I agree if Sundance WAS a public lake...my point of view would also change and I would be arguing a much different point of view. Maybe Neil is just ticked that this guy is older like himself. I want everyone to know I am not biased to turning in a law breaker, poacher, thief or what ever based upon age, sex, color of skin. Fortunately this has not transgressed to that thread ending turn but I fish with anyone...and I mean absolutely ANYONE that can tolerate ME!

 

Neil...you are still included in that category. If you can tolerate fishing with me I would be more than happy to get you out next Spring so that you can see for yourself the value or whatever this lake means to the community and why you need enforceable rules and regulations to keep it from falling apart at the seams!

 

Cheers

 

Kevin

 

[Neil Waugh]

So is Bullshead a "man made" lake. And McGregor. And Crawling Valley. And Ridge. And just about every Fish and Game Club trout pond in the province.

The difference is, they're not pay-to-play operations.

Every pothole in the province where fish have been stocked is a "man made" fishery.

Pet shoots for ranched elk, pheasant preserves or Lake Sundance are all in that dangerous gray zone where fish and game resources are removed from the public domain and placed the exclusive hands of the privileged and the rich.

Where an arbitrary "residents association" tries to assume the role of government.

Not unlike those landowners who are imposing their riparian rights on the Crowsnest and Jumping Pound Creek which had folks on here flaming a few weeks ago.

This is the same concerns raised about Morton's RAMP program where landowners get compensated for access and habitat preservation.

You gotta look at the Big Picture.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

So is Bullshead a "man made" lake. And McGregor. And Crawling Valley. And Ridge. And just about every Fish and Game Club trout pond in the province.

The difference is, they're not pay-to-play operations.

Every pothole in the province where fish have been stocked is a "man made" fishery.

Pet shoots for ranched elk, pheasant preserves or Lake Sundance are all in that dangerous gray zone where fish and game resources are removed from the public domain and placed the exclusive hands of the privileged and the rich.

Where an arbitrary "residents association" tries to assume the role of government.

Not unlike those landowners who are imposing their riparian rights on the Crowsnest and Jumping Pound Creek which had folks on here flaming a few weeks ago.

This is the same concerns raised about Morton's RAMP program where landowners get compensated for access and habitat preservation.

You gotta look at the Big Picture.

 

Neil...those lakes are reservoirs currently on Public lands (I can hear the elastic stretching to the breaking point). Man made fishery (stocking a public lake) versus digging a hole with a bulldozer on private land is different. Pot hole lakes made by nature via glacial activity again...you are adding in a new and unique change in direction and arguing something totally new. Pheasants are also a new twist for you.

 

So a farmer that digs a watering hole for their cattle and stocks trout in it is contributing to the demise of public fishing in Alberta. Neil...how far can you continue to stretch this?

 

Riparian river rights is another change...and if I recall when people realized they legally owned it from an old title document...people can accept that.

 

Your tally count on direction changes is rising. You have missed religion and global warming. Let me help you. People are fishing more and may miss church. The lake can act like a heat sink and in the fall will release heat thereby dooming us all.

 

RAMP...big picture...hunting?...Neil...your head seems so far in the clouds now that you can not focus on the issue. You are looking at clouds from Pluto whereas the rest of us seem to be just commenting on a simple fact.

 

Am I hearing correctly that you are totally against a farmers right to build a dugout and stock with trout for his OWN personal use? Are you saying that lake communities being constructed in Edmonton and Calgary (glorified dugout) should have no rights to stock trout and manage them for their own personal use?

 

Neil...I am now getting very entertained by you. You are a very funny writer.

 

Seriously.

 

Sun

[Neil Waugh]

By the way Kevin, you think you could get me on Sundance for an afternoon. It sounds like a lot of fun.

Now where was I.....

[Guest Sundancefisher]

By the way Kevin, you think you could get me on Sundance for an afternoon. It sounds like a lot of fun.

Now where was I.....

 

Seriously Neil.

 

No problem...

 

Unfortunately the lake is now 90% frozen over ::ice fish:: . Please take me serious when I say PM me in the Spring . We should time it just after the Spring stocking unless enough fish survive the ice fishing over the winter to make for good sport first thing in the Spring.

 

Hopefully we can try and catch a big one...

 

Cheers

 

Sun

 

P.S. My kids wanted to see how Emoticons work...

[flyfishfairwx]

Seriously Neil.

 

No problem...

 

Unfortunately the lake is now 90% frozen over ::ice fish:: . Please take me serious when I say PM me in the Spring . We should time it just after the Spring stocking unless enough fish survive the ice fishing over the winter to make for good sport first thing in the Spring.

 

Hopefully we can try and catch a big one...

 

Cheers

 

Sun

 

P.S. My kids wanted to see how Emoticons work...

 

 

The last bit of that thread was a comedy worthy of Laural and Hardy "who's on first and what on second"

 

Sorry Neil.. Love the articles about hunting Pheasants at the release sites in the Edmonchuck Sun..and don't worry when Hell Freezes over and the liberals get elected in Alberta you will be taken care of.. they will give a stick with string and safety pin(but dull the point) and a pop gun, and a coffee can filled with spit and rubber duckies and floating rubber fish.. but add a tax on all of it..

[Neil Waugh]

Re: Buffalo Lake

 

C,mon Flyfishfairwx, testify. These are lean and desperate times.

Swear that you haven't ever harvested one of those "hoodie" birds from the OK Hutterite Lease up on the Ridge? You know the ones. They hold real tight and have APC branded on their butts.

I think it might have been Abbott and Costello why did the "who's on first base" routine, by the way. Or was it Tweetie and Sylvester?

Now back to the dreaded SUNDANCE POACHER.

[flyfishfairwx]

Re: Buffalo Lake

 

C,mon Flyfishfairwx, testify. These are lean and desperate times.

Swear that you haven't ever harvested one of those "hoodie" birds from the OK Hutterite Lease up on the Ridge? You know the ones. They hold real tight and have APC branded on their butts.

I think it might have been Abbott and Costello why did the "who's on first base" routine, by the way. Or was it Tweetie and Sylvester?

Now back to the dreaded SUNDANCE POACHER.

 

 

HAHAHAHAHHA Neil..

 

I am very new to Pheasant hunting and have yet to knock one down.. GHT.. I was hunting a single 16ga just got a Pump.. love my Ruffies..

 

This thing is about lack of respect. The guy deserves no sympathy. He made a choice! clear and simple. I have a feeling that if asked "why" and he answered honestly he would say "because I wanted to"

 

I will repeat what my Grandfather told me "The world does not owe you anything.. You owe the world , prove that you are a good citizen, worthy of being" Do the best that you can, and be honest!

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Interesting that this fellow decide to poach (steal) a few extra trout when he had free reign on as many perch that he could want (and eat, store, sell if he wanted, LoL)... IMHO, I'd say perch are way better eating then "raised in captivity" trout!!

 

P

 

Free perch are available to anyone needing meat. I will gladly train anyone to use the perch only gill net...

[Smitty]

Hey Sun:

 

If you're not exhausted by this topic yet in explaining relatively straightforward concepts to people who like comparing apples to cauliflower, why don't you post on the other forum with the perch meat offer, so you can get blasted for that too?

 

 

Smitty

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Hey Sun:

 

If you're not exhausted by this topic yet in explaining relatively straightforward concepts to people who like comparing apples to cauliflower, why don't you post on the other forum with the perch meat offer, so you can get blasted for that too?

 

 

Smitty

 

LOL...it has been beaten to death before

[BBBrownie]

Thanks for the entertainment guys, I made myself a bowl of popcorn and settled down for this one! Ah semantics...

[duanec]

Strange how a topic went from being about a guy caught breaking the rules and keeping over his limit to a talk on.

1. Who paid to build the lake

2. Elk Farming

3. Conservative political agendas

4. European fishing regulations

5. Communism

6. Privatization of fisheries

7. Website definitions of poaching

8. Anarchy and chaos theory

9. Breaking regulations versus laws

10. Jurisdictional legal authority

and bird hunting.

wow. good one!