Poll: Is It Time Yet For Classified Waters In Alberta

[Taco]

Gary, I second the motion. Let's get er done. Terry

 

 

Na, better idear, build a fence 3 k on either side of # 3, across the valley @ Lundbreck and again across @ the summit. Keep all them born again Crowsnesters under control, oncet ya step inside the zone ya can't come out.

[snuffy]

Double the cost of a license and it'll still be cheap. In some limited circumstances, it may be prohibitive for casual fishermen and famililies, but this is not illiberal. For one, young children are already exempted, so a structure already exists to mitigate the effect on economically marginalized families.

 

From the many horror stories we review in this forum and my own experience, it appears to me that our major problem is not one of regulation, but of abuse and lack of enforcement. In 30 years of fishing in Alberta, I've had my license checked once, and that was in Fish Creek Park. Were I of a different frame of mind, I could easily do without one and have no fear of getting caught. What is the real problem: the fisherman in the pool below you interrupting your solace, or the trio of bait chucking louts on the cliff above tossing their beer cans about and hitting you up for weed?

 

In the past, our population density was low enough that these people would not have a catastrophic impact. But with our economic growth and the influx that came with it, I fear that this is no longer the case. Therefore, I believe that we should pay more to use this resource, that being the only way to conserve it.

 

At the end of the day, if you're trying to convince someone to conserve something, the real problem is that it is too cheap.

[TerryH]

............... oncet ya step inside the zone ya can't come out.

I don't want to come out. Terry

 

[trailhead]

I voted yes, because I have run into people staying in Fernie and fishing mainly on the Alberta side. They told me they used to exclusively fish the Elk and because of the classified water issue they now fish one or two days of their vacation in BC and the rest in Alberta. They were real nice but as I was fishing up below them not realizing they were upstream of me I caught nothing. They allowed me to pass and I was immediately into fish. So as they say one bad apple spoils the barrel and to protect our waters here in Alberta we have to come to the same level as BC. I think a tiered system of a low price for Alberta residents, because we pay taxes here. A higher price for people from Ontario, Sask etc. The next step up for non-Canadians, and the highest rate for the BC residents, because then we can ensure the quality of our fisheries, reduce the number of anglers on the waters and increase the enforcement level so we catch those without their daily stamp. I've run into BC anglers on the Crow who told me gleefully that they pay less to fish in Alberta than in BC, time for a change.

[nebc]

Double the cost of a license and it'll still be cheap. In some limited circumstances, it may be prohibitive for casual fishermen and famililies, but this is not illiberal. For one, young children are already exempted, so a structure already exists to mitigate the effect on economically marginalized families.

 

From the many horror stories we review in this forum and my own experience, it appears to me that our major problem is not one of regulation, but of abuse and lack of enforcement. In 30 years of fishing in Alberta, I've had my license checked once, and that was in Fish Creek Park. Were I of a different frame of mind, I could easily do without one and have no fear of getting caught. What is the real problem: the fisherman in the pool below you interrupting your solace, or the trio of bait chucking louts on the cliff above tossing their beer cans about and hitting you up for weed?

 

In the past, our population density was low enough that these people would not have a catastrophic impact. But with our economic growth and the influx that came with it, I fear that this is no longer the case. Therefore, I believe that we should pay more to use this resource, that being the only way to conserve it.

 

At the end of the day, if you're trying to convince someone to conserve something, the real problem is that it is too cheap.

 

Being a classified water in BC is not what helped the Elk recover. It was a change in fisheries management with catch and release and lowering the kill rate there. Same with some of the other good water.

[jack]

Being a classified water in BC is not what helped the Elk recover. It was a change in fisheries management with catch and release and lowering the kill rate there. Same with some of the other good water.

 

It has been pretty obvious to anyone who fishes the Elk on a regular basis that the classified water restrictions have reduced the illegal guiding substantially. The non-resident and non-resident alien boat numbers are minuscule compared to 5 years ago. The fish stocks have substantially increased, the "fishing experience" has improved dramatically. I subjectively believe all the measures have contributed to the improvement of the resource. The bottom line is: The fishing experience on all parts of the Elk River have improved since the restrictive regulations, period. Want to improve a fishery in Alberta? Find a way to reduce the fishing pressure or at least spread the pressure around. So what gets your attention? A "Pretty please act responsibly" or "It will cost you extra to fish here and you're restricted to 3 days on each river." Do you actually want to improve things or do you want your own corner of paradise and exclude everyone else?

What's wrong with additional fees for special waters, if 100% of those fees and licenses go directly back into the resource? What's wrong with provincial taxpayers who maintain the fisheries department infrastructure, year 'round, getting a fee break? Want to establish a fee structure punitive to BC residents in order to "get back" at "them" ? Get at it, it's your resource, but a better reason is to protect and enhance the resource, don't you think?

j

 

 

[mikefromsundre]

Does classifying waters such as the Elk and Michelle Ck actually result in less pressure?

 

I have not read any scientifically collected data or information on the topic. From personal observation I felt it actually had increased the pressure on Michelle. A couple of years after the regs went into affect I saw far more rental cars and out of country license plates. I met a fella from the US who told me that when he saw that the Elk system was now classified he figured it had to be good fishing if they were going to the trouble of classifying it. In other words classifying it drew more attention to it. Bob Scammel makes a similar observation in the recent Cdn Fly Fisherman.

 

My second thought is raising fees starts to make fishing exclusive. My guess is when that happens the "average" Albertan starts to say to hell with fishing and you soon are faced with even a bigger reduction in licenses sold than we have over the years. I realize it is hard for some Albertans to understand that a great many of us are on budgets. A friend of mine had to give up fishing in BC because there was no room in his budget for the high cost of a license plus $20 per day. I have had to do the same in other areas. The cost of golfing at the local courses has reduced the number of rounds I can golf a year. Again I realize for many Albertans that is hard to fathom -but it is reality for many of us. Higher fees for fishing, two tier medical systems, private schools.... so we charge more for streams so that the select few can have a great experience.

 

I agree we need far more enforcement out there... but will that reduce pressure? It will help the fisheries though and that should be our focus not can I have a great day without a lot of others around. If that is your aim as has been said earlier get a map and some hiking boots. My wife and I had a wonderful day all to ourselves last week on a cutthroat stream after a 45 minute hike away from everyone else.

 

I have said it before I feel a lot of the pressure is a result of our promoting and advertising of what we have. Doubts- check out the articles in the recent issue of Cdn Fly Fisherman.

[jack]

"A friend of mine had to give up fishing in BC because there was no room in his budget for the high cost of a license plus $20 per day"

So, if your friend doesn't go and his friends don't either, isn't that called "reducing pressure" ? Isn't that your "information" right there? Sure, some people will actually read the regs and rationalize that a "classified" water will be a better fishing experience. Doesn't that say something? I haven't counted out of province cars, just how many boats and people are actually on the river. It isn't as crowded, there are a LOT fewer privately-owned drift boats with a rower and two "friends".

 

People have to get over the perception that new regulations are all about being "against" or "targeting" some specific group and that they are "victims" of persecution. Prior to the new regs, the Elk was a bloody, unregulated gong-show with illegal guiding absolutely rampant. How does government regulate "rod days" on licensed guides and let other have free rein? It can't. They had to institute measures to preserve the Elk River "experience". Yes, local licensed guides had some input, but certainly not more than fisheries biologists and conservation officers.

 

Back to the subject: In order to reduce pressure on specific waters, shouldn't some of the more sensitive areas be "guide free"(like the Thompson River in BC) ? Shouldn't all guides be regulated and allotted rod days on waters that they apply for? How can a province protect at least some of the resource if it's all just a free-for-all ?

j

j

[mikefromsundre]

"A friend of mine had to give up fishing in BC because there was no room in his budget for the high cost of a license plus $20 per day"

So, if your friend doesn't go and his friends don't either, isn't that called "reducing pressure" ? Isn't that your "information" right there? Sure, some people will actually read the regs and rationalize that a "classified" water will be a better fishing experience. Doesn't that say something? I haven't counted out of province cars, just how many boats and people are actually on the river. It isn't as crowded, there are a LOT fewer privately-owned drift boats with a rower and two "friends".

 

My concern is we limit access and reduce pressure by raising the cost which makes the fishing exclusive for those that can afford it. Perhaps classified streams could be on a yearly draw like hunting. I can generally count on getting my elk tags every three to four years -it is not based on how much I can pay.

With a draw you can ensure that Albertan's get a higher % of the fishing days compared to out of province or out of country.

[GreenPeter]

 

I travel from Ireland to Alberta regularly as my wife is from AB. I didn't vote because as a visiting angler I feel privileged to fish these great waters, and don't feel that I have any rights in this matter.

 

I would echo the point that ,fishing magazines are somewhat responsible for the increased numbers traveling, Many of the mags. in Ireland and the UK regularly feature Alberta's rivers and streams! I have them all saved! Visiting anglers returning home with tales of many wonderful tails, also contributes.

 

As a foreign visitor, I think it is reasonable, if not good sense, to ask us (foreigners)to pay the most for the fishing. In Ireland we have to pay an annual license, and then day tickets to who ever owns the Game fishing rights. The prices vary, but be aware that this has caused many problems. most of the best water is totally exclusive, with rich anglers from continental Europe flying in for the best fishing. this excludes locals, casual anglers. Causing some animosity, and at times I have paid the big money, and it took away from my ability to enjoy my fishing.

 

So may be it's time to revisit the whole area.

 

I was at an agricultural show in Ireland, where I met a fisheries official. He told me he was visiting family in Calgary, but he went south to Montana to pay over $3000 to fish for 5 days at a lodge.

 

So, how do encourage this angler to spend his money in your economy, next time he is here? I recommended a guide I've used 3 times to him, so who knows?

 

 

Again it is my privilege to fish here when I visit, so I hope the best decision is made for LOCAL anglers. The rest of us believe it or not will be happy with what we are given, as no one wants to see paradise lost.

 

 

Dirk

 

[Mykiss]

Perhaps classified streams could be on a yearly draw like hunting. I can generally count on getting my elk tags every three to four years -it is not based on how much I can pay.

With a draw you can ensure that Albertan's get a higher % of the fishing days compared to out of province or out of country.

 

 

Absolutely NOT!!!!!!!!! If you want to try to limit NRA's go ahead and put a draw in for them....as far as a draw on NRC's ferget that #$%^ing gong show....and if you do put a draw in for NRC's than you better put in a draw for residents.....It is ignorant to expect changes to rules and not expect changes across the board to all Canadians involved.

[jayjjones11]

Absolutely NOT!!!!!!!!! If you want to try to limit NRA's go ahead and put a draw in for them....as far as a draw on NRC's ferget that #$%^ing gong show....and if you do put a draw in for NRC's than you better put in a draw for residents.....It is ignorant to expect changes to rules and not expect changes across the board to all Canadians involved.

 

 

Have you been keeping in touch with the BC current AMP for the Skeena drainage? They're trying to implement EXACTLY this. Draws for NRC's and limits on total days fishing. Seems they're forgetting the draw for residents though (so i guess we and they are ignorant)

 

 

[Mykiss]

Have you been keeping in touch with the BC current AMP for the Skeena drainage? They're trying to implement EXACTLY this. Draws for NRC's and limits on total days fishing. Seems they're forgetting the draw for residents though (so i guess we and they are ignorant)

 

 

Yes Jay I am unfortunately "VERY" aware and updated on the Skeena AMP as of per the October 08 draft... Very anxious for the new draft in September...and yes as I have beat this dead horse what feels like and could be a million times now.... I have explained to Alan Dolan and Associates the best way to follow the AMP's policy which...........as stated in the AMP the least restrictive means possible.... is to regulate the rod days on the rivers to the NRA's..... No draw just a certain amount of rod days....that is the first step you make...You collect data for a few years and in interpret the data and go from there...If you go with the draw for NRC's and NRA's than you are stuck with the draw from now till who knows how long....Just like the way it would be here and anywhere.... BABY STEPS PEOPLE!!!!!

[rusty]

Just want to clarify, mike: your friend could afford gas, housing, food, etc in BC but not the $20/day license fee?

 

I see one of two scenarios.

 

1. You can afford, but not justify it. That's the same as a lot of things, fishing included. If the license cost went up again next year, would you stop fishing? Doubtful. For most of these folks, they'll stay on the east side of the border, fish different rivers, and maybe treat themselves once in a while. It's a choice. It's the same for me with golfing.

 

2. You can afford it, but not for the number of days you used to fish it. Put me in this category. In 2001 I fished the Elk, etc for 21 days. Instead, I fish down there maybe 3-4 days a year now. If I'm remotely typical of the average, then the fishing pressure is reduced, the experience is preserved, and we all get to enjoy it (albeit less so).

 

You are going to have to explain to me how someone can afford $55 for a year's BC license and gas to get there but not $20 for a CW stamp.

 

Either way, the rod fee is low enough that nearly everyone can afford it, but is implemented in such a way that people will reduce their rod days and trade quantity for quality. And, as a bonus, more cash goes into the system.

 

Next year I'll go to the Skeena with a couple of buddies.

Cost of gas: $600

Cost of camping/lodging: $250/$1000

Cost of food: $1000

Cost of CW stamps: $420

 

How is that unreasonable?

 

[nebc]

Being a classified water in BC is not what helped the Elk recover. It was a change in fisheries management with catch and release and lowering the kill rate there. Same with some of the other good water.

sorry but the illicit angling and big game guiding had little to do with this issue.

The guide issue was settled by redefining the definitions for guiding for angling and big game hunting thus preventing the ridiculous activity levels - the classified water may have been a small help but very little.

[nebc]

Have you been keeping in touch with the BC current AMP for the Skeena drainage? They're trying to implement EXACTLY this. Draws for NRC's and limits on total days fishing. Seems they're forgetting the draw for residents though (so i guess we and they are ignorant)

if you ask residents who do not understand how their rights are about to be compromised with little value for us they will always hang themselves...

Government plays this game with us because they want to be seen tobe managing by complex rules like their limited entry draws.

 

They should always be questioned on this as the sole benefit is reaped by their lowered costs...not ours...and less effort and funding invariably goes into enforcement and PROACTIVE management.

 

Government these days seems to play down and underfund those who are proactive and attempts to keep a focus on pretend management like this.

[nebc]

Just want to clarify, mike: your friend could afford gas, housing, food, etc in BC but not the $20/day license fee?

 

I see one of two scenarios.

 

1. You can afford, but not justify it. That's the same as a lot of things, fishing included. If the license cost went up again next year, would you stop fishing? Doubtful. For most of these folks, they'll stay on the east side of the border, fish different rivers, and maybe treat themselves once in a while. It's a choice. It's the same for me with golfing.

 

2. You can afford it, but not for the number of days you used to fish it. Put me in this category. In 2001 I fished the Elk, etc for 21 days. Instead, I fish down there maybe 3-4 days a year now. If I'm remotely typical of the average, then the fishing pressure is reduced, the experience is preserved, and we all get to enjoy it (albeit less so).

 

You are going to have to explain to me how someone can afford $55 for a year's BC license and gas to get there but not $20 for a CW stamp.

 

Either way, the rod fee is low enough that nearly everyone can afford it, but is implemented in such a way that people will reduce their rod days and trade quantity for quality. And, as a bonus, more cash goes into the system.

 

Next year I'll go to the Skeena with a couple of buddies.

Cost of gas: $600

Cost of camping/lodging: $250/$1000

Cost of food: $1000

Cost of CW stamps: $420

 

How is that unreasonable?

 

In that if you wanted restrictions plasced on your fishihg opportunities, none would be placed on those of the guides and the non-resident activity and allocation would prove a real issue that has not been addressed properly in Alberta for fishing or for Big Game.

[nebc]

Just want to clarify, mike: your friend could afford gas, housing, food, etc in BC but not the $20/day license fee?

 

I see one of two scenarios.

 

1. You can afford, but not justify it. That's the same as a lot of things, fishing included. If the license cost went up again next year, would you stop fishing? Doubtful. For most of these folks, they'll stay on the east side of the border, fish different rivers, and maybe treat themselves once in a while. It's a choice. It's the same for me with golfing.

 

2. You can afford it, but not for the number of days you used to fish it. Put me in this category. In 2001 I fished the Elk, etc for 21 days. Instead, I fish down there maybe 3-4 days a year now. If I'm remotely typical of the average, then the fishing pressure is reduced, the experience is preserved, and we all get to enjoy it (albeit less so).

 

You are going to have to explain to me how someone can afford $55 for a year's BC license and gas to get there but not $20 for a CW stamp.

 

Either way, the rod fee is low enough that nearly everyone can afford it, but is implemented in such a way that people will reduce their rod days and trade quantity for quality. And, as a bonus, more cash goes into the system.

 

Next year I'll go to the Skeena with a couple of buddies.

Cost of gas: $600

Cost of camping/lodging: $250/$1000

Cost of food: $1000

Cost of CW stamps: $420

 

How is that unreasonable?

 

In that if you wanted restrictions plasced on your fishihg opportunities, none would be placed on those of the guides and the non-resident activity and allocation would prove a real issue that has not been addressed properly in Alberta for fishing or for Big Game.

[nebc]

Yes Jay I am unfortunately "VERY" aware and updated on the Skeena AMP as of per the October 08 draft... Very anxious for the new draft in September...and yes as I have beat this dead horse what feels like and could be a million times now.... I have explained to Alan Dolan and Associates the best way to follow the AMP's policy which...........as stated in the AMP the least restrictive means possible.... is to regulate the rod days on the rivers to the NRA's..... No draw just a certain amount of rod days....that is the first step you make...You collect data for a few years and in interpret the data and go from there...If you go with the draw for NRC's and NRA's than you are stuck with the draw from now till who knows how long....Just like the way it would be here and anywhere.... BABY STEPS PEOPLE!!!!!

government planninf initiatives like this are designed and used to restrict our rights by drawing in people to a user/government group and smother them with bs until they compromise us when the truth is there is often no need. More governence is hardly what we need. The recent years have seen experienced people retire in droves. Little wonder this kind of thing is now an issue with the green low levels of experience we have now.

[mikefromsundre]

Just want to clarify, mike: your friend could afford gas, housing, food, etc in BC but not the $20/day license fee?

 

 

No. We usually camped in AB and car pooled over to Michelle. Never could this fella have stayed in BC, especially not in a motel. Just so you understand because I realize a tight budget is hard for many in AB to understand. He usually saved Xmas money and birthday money into a fishing fund for the summer. The increased costs put it beyond his budget. He tented and drove an old pickup and carried sandwiches to eat when the rest of us would head in for a sit down meal. Don't get me wrong he would never look for sympathy -it was just the way it is for him. And I would guess a lot of folks. You raise the cost here and you raise it there and pretty soon fishing has become a wealthy man's sport just like it is in Europe.