Livingstone Area At Risk?

[mikefromsundre]

Been down to the Livingstone twice this summer -first week of July and last week (water was high but it fished well). I am seeing a change in the area. The large group camps with quaders and off roaders is on the increase. The first week of July (the holiday was Wed.) the area had more quaders and dirt bikers than I have ever seen. All of them had to at some time during the week cross back and forth at the 2 stream crossings that are across from the ranch house. Everyone I met was respectful and decent guys. Several waited at the south ford before crossing while I fished.

Last week there was a huge campsite across from the ranch -5 trailers, I lost track of how many quads (even several of the little kiddy ones), a dune buggy and a 4x4 with a snorkle air intake. I never did see them cross the river, but every evening they would arrive back very muddy so they were tearing it up some place. Other than that they were well behaved and quiet.

Thurs. as I was moving to the Crow (mistake it was high and muddy and did not fish well) two vehicles full of high school age kids came roaring in (they did not have quads and were just looking to party). They looked at the campsite at the bottom of the north ford opposite White Creek. When they saw we were leaving they decided to take our camp spot. As I drove out I saw 1 guy toss a beer can into the trees and another light up a joint -it was 9am! Even though the Crow did not fish I was sure glad I had got the heck out of there.

In over 10 years in the area I have never seen this many people camped in the area nor seen the area being abused like this before. I talked to one of the ranchers. He said he is seeing more people and is having to repair a lot more fences and has had to clean up some messes and put camp fires out.

I am not sure my point for this post. I wonder if anyone else is seeing this. Is this the result of the closure of other areas after damage? Will we have the Livingstone area damaged and then closed as well? And yes I own a quad and have used it to access areas, but I do not use it with the sole purpose of seeing if I can climb the steepest hill, or cross the deepest water or find the biggest mud hole to plow through. While I did not really encounter any jerks (other than the kids) -once the area becomes known for quading and partying are the jerks far behind? Thoughts? I know my time this summer on the Livingstone has not been as enjoyable as other years.

[AndyW]

I couldn't agree more. Take the time to write Ted Morton and cc your MLA and the MLA of that area, and the area manager and let them know about your observations and what you want to see done with this area.

 

With no disrespect to the people who post their observations/rants on this and other topics the only way to change things is let the decision makers know how you feel and what you want done.

 

http://www.albertawilderness.ca/AWRC/actionkit.htm

[Harps]

Mike,

 

Great concerns;

Could you please send this to Cory Wojtowicz at SRD- Forestry in Blairmore?

cory.wojtowicz@gov.ab.ca

 

 

Wojtowicz, Cory

Forest Officer

Lands - Forest Operations

Sustainable Resource Development

Box 540

Blairmore, AB

T0K 0E0

 

Phone: 403 562-3135

Fax: 403 562-7143

E-mail: cory.wojtowicz@gov.ab.ca

 

[mikefromsundre]

I get a chance I will send a note to Ted Morton. I forwarded a copy to Cory W. He is out of his office until Aug 4. I will post any replies I get from the gov't.

[mikefromsundre]

Just noticed several comments about the increase in random campers in the area at the South Ab. stream report thread. And I do random camp -I am sure some of you have seen me. But I am self contained use my own toilet and truck it home, take all my own garbage out and lately try to pick up other stuff as well. My wife and I enjoy being able to fish until dark and walk up to our trailer and have drink and hit the sack without driving. We have been camping in the area for 10 years+ and do not feel anyone would ever have a concern with us. And really I do not have a concern with 90% of the folks camped anywhere in the forestry -it is the other 10% that worry me.

[Pythagoras]

light up a joint -it was 9am!

 

Nice...wake n bake.

 

I'm not a friend of the random campers but I gotta say I'm doing it this weekend. First time. I found a place near a few streams where I love to be. Sure there are alot of permacampers and bikes/atvs, but I want my share too.

 

I stayed in a camp ground this past weekend and it was a drag...miles from the fishing...11pm quite time (wtf...i just got back and ate...now i want to sing and drink!) and $8 for a few pieces of 2x4 for firewood....f dat.

 

My major concern is taking care of my (personal) waste....googling that now.....

[bhurt]

Personally I have no problem with the random camping AS LONG as it abidies by the law.

 

2 or 3 days (weekend) no problem, the sqatters are a totally diffrent story.

 

The ORV debate is just like the jetboat, no problem if they are curtious but there are without a doubt a large number of jackasses that do nothing but tear up the land and DESTROY the natural habitat of animals that must SURVIVE in the area.

 

I think a posbilble solution for the random camping is that the random camper has to purchase a permit, some small amount and the money goes back into conservation of that area.

[SupremeLeader]

Quading or 4x4ing into remote areas is bad no matter what the intention. The noise from these vehicles is one of the major reasons they disturb and damage sensitive areas; it is not just the visible damage.

 

Except for Government services all vehicles should be banned from off-road use in the forestry areas save certain areas such as MacLean <sp creek (an eye-sore of Alberta).

 

If you can't get there on foot (or mountain bike in some cases), then you can't go.

 

People that use off-road vehicles to gain access to remote areas are doing damage no matter how careful they are; and there seems to be a correlation between people who use these modes of transportation and people who disrespect the wilderness. And in many cases it is just laziness; walk, hike or bike......it is better for your health and the well-being of all living entities.

 

I would prefer not to smell exhaust, hear loud engines, and watch overweight beer-guts fly past me while fishing or hiking.

 

 

 

[flyfishfairwx]

Quading or 4x4ing into remote areas is bad no matter what the intention. The noise from these vehicles is one of the major reasons they disturb and damage sensitive areas; it is not just the visible damage.

 

Except for Government services all vehicles should be banned from off-road use in the forestry areas save certain areas such as MacLean <sp creek (an eye-sore of Alberta).

 

If you can't get there on foot (or mountain bike in some cases), then you can't go.

 

People that use off-road vehicles to gain access to remote areas are doing damage no matter how careful they are; and there seems to be a correlation between people who use these modes of transportation and people who disrespect the wilderness. And in many cases it is just laziness; walk, hike or bike......it is better for your health and the well-being of all living entities.

 

I would prefer not to smell exhaust, hear loud engines, and watch overweight beer-guts fly past me while fishing or hiking.

AMEN X 1

 

[seanbritt]

I believe this topic has been discussed many times on the board, but as it is also close to my heart I have to put in my 2 cents. My wife did her MA thesis on recreational use of this area-both interviewing users through a roadside survey and through a formal mapping of the use areas. In short, use of the area from a multitude of users is increasing--fishing/hiking/quadding/camping/horse back riding, etc.. And that's just your recreational use (her focus). Then you have your commercial use, etc..

 

Recreational use is on the rise for many reasons, two primary ones of late (past few years) has been the push/pull factor of closures of other areas as well as the recent decline in the economy. Before the latter, you could replace it with the booming oil/gas sector and the "weekend" factor that accompanies it.

 

I think you're right in that there are a lot of people out there who respect the land. Unfortunately, as with all sports (even fly-fishing), there are those who don't follow the rules that are there to protect the resources we love. With some recreational pursuits (e.g. quadding/bogging) the impact of that unlawful use is greater felt due to the nature of that activitity (compare a hiker walking where they shouldn't vs. a quad ripping through somewhere they shouldn't).

 

What's the answer? Well, if there was one (that worked) we wouldn't be having this discussion. There have been many land use plans in the past, but in the end there are a lot of us who love the land for various reasons and we all have a right to engage in our pursuits. I'm an advocate for a multi-tiered plan that would be based on zoning (e.g. closures/temp. closures/restricted use/etc.) and involved education and enforcement. For example, have an area that is designed specifically for bogging use. Have other areas that are non-motorized recreation only, etc. And most importantly, have lots of officers on the ground and giving out hefty fines (to all users, fishermen alike) to curb illegal activity.

 

Numerous barries exist, including heavy lobbying power by the quadding sector, apathy among those being effected, elected officials that have other priorities, etc. However, Harps had a good suggestion to write to your officials. The only way we can protect our resources is if we speak up. Other recommendations would be to get involved with organizations that share your view (either by volunteering or donating $$), and even having a friendly conversation with other users. Heck, a few nice words and education about the impact to our land goes a long way to creating common ground....

[AndyW]

Quading or 4x4ing into remote areas is bad no matter what the intention. The noise from these vehicles is one of the major reasons they disturb and damage sensitive areas; it is not just the visible damage.

 

Except for Government services all vehicles should be banned from off-road use in the forestry areas save certain areas such as MacLean <sp creek (an eye-sore of Alberta).

 

If you can't get there on foot (or mountain bike in some cases), then you can't go.

 

People that use off-road vehicles to gain access to remote areas are doing damage no matter how careful they are; and there seems to be a correlation between people who use these modes of transportation and people who disrespect the wilderness. And in many cases it is just laziness; walk, hike or bike......it is better for your health and the well-being of all living entities.

 

I would prefer not to smell exhaust, hear loud engines, and watch overweight beer-guts fly past me while fishing or hiking.

 

Some fairly grandiose assumptions you make here....

 

[flyfishfairwx]

My Brother in law just came from NB for a visit and could not believe what he saw on the WC and other places we fished... he was appalled at the destruction.. it was a prime example what is wrong with the whole scene...

 

In NB now you have to belong to trail clubs and pay to use the trails and there are cops (his words) on the trail to ensure all goes well.. quads and such even sleds must be insured and lic'd and you must obey all the rules stay on trails etc.. there are mud bogging areas etc...

 

and this from a province that is still about 90% covered in woods and wilderness... too many deaths and too much destruction of environment...

 

 

Albertan's approaching us and not knowing a Bow from a Bull, thats right a Bull and a BOW, and telling me he shoots deer in his town IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS TOWN OUT OF SEASON!!! WTF.. he admitted to keeping big BOWS but maybe Bulls now from a no keep zone.. He must have thought that I was from NB also... I kept my kool and educated him and then he would not talk to me any more, was trying to get his name cause there was no Lic plate on the POS quad he was on, he took off at a high rate of speed , more then likely to get rid of trout in his freezer !!!

 

 

skinny mullet wearing Red neck pecker head, I apologized to my BIL and tried to tell him that not all are like that.. he said he understood as there are lots in NB still..

 

Damn there is a long way to go here..

[AndyW]

My Brother in law just came from NB for a visit and could not believe what he saw on the WC and other places we fished... he was appalled at the destruction.. it was a prime example what is wrong with the whole scene...

 

In NB now you have to belong to trail clubs and pay to use the trails and there are cops (his words) on the trail to ensure all goes well.. quads and such even sleds must be insured and lic'd and you must obey all the rules stay on trails etc.. there are mud bogging areas etc...

 

and this from a province that is still about 90% covered in woods and wilderness... too many deaths and too much destruction of environment...

 

 

Albertan's approaching us and not knowing a Bow from a Bull, thats right a Bull and a BOW, and telling me he shoots deer in his town IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS TOWN OUT OF SEASON!!! WTF.. he admitted to keeping big BOWS but maybe Bulls now from a no keep zone.. He must have thought that I was from NB also... I kept my kool and educated him and then he would not talk to me any more, was trying to get his name cause there was no Lic plate on the POS quad he was on, he took off at a high rate of speed , more then likely to get rid of trout in his freezer !!!

 

 

skinny mullet wearing Red neck pecker head, I apologized to my BIL and tried to tell him that not all are like that.. he said he understood as there are lots in NB still..

 

Damn there is a long way to go here..

 

I agree there is a long way to go here. Education and enforcement is the key. We should not ban activities just because fools do not follow the rules. The open camping discussion is a great example. Just because some abuse it we should not ban open camping. We have no problem introducing new laws and regulations, yet we seem to lack the resources to enforce the existing ones....

[fisher26]

A booming city of over a million so close, combined with barely any government management of resources does not bode well. Not to mention the extensive clear cutting and oil and gas development. Unless a major change occurs it is only a matter of years until that entire area is completely trashed.

 

 

 

 

[mikefromsundre]

I believe this topic has been discussed many times on the board, but as it is also close to my heart I have to put in my 2 cents. My wife did her MA thesis on recreational use of this area-both interviewing users through a roadside survey and through a formal mapping of the use areas. In short, use of the area from a multitude of users is increasing--fishing/hiking/quadding/camping/horse back riding, etc.. And that's just your recreational use (her focus). Then you have your commercial use, etc..

 

Recreational use is on the rise for many reasons, two primary ones of late (past few years) has been the push/pull factor of closures of other areas as well as the recent decline in the economy. Before the latter, you could replace it with the booming oil/gas sector and the "weekend" factor that accompanies it.

 

I think you're right in that there are a lot of people out there who respect the land. Unfortunately, as with all sports (even fly-fishing), there are those who don't follow the rules that are there to protect the resources we love. With some recreational pursuits (e.g. quadding/bogging) the impact of that unlawful use is greater felt due to the nature of that activitity (compare a hiker walking where they shouldn't vs. a quad ripping through somewhere they shouldn't).

 

What's the answer? Well, if there was one (that worked) we wouldn't be having this discussion. There have been many land use plans in the past, but in the end there are a lot of us who love the land for various reasons and we all have a right to engage in our pursuits. I'm an advocate for a multi-tiered plan that would be based on zoning (e.g. closures/temp. closures/restricted use/etc.) and involved education and enforcement. For example, have an area that is designed specifically for bogging use. Have other areas that are non-motorized recreation only, etc. And most importantly, have lots of officers on the ground and giving out hefty fines (to all users, fishermen alike) to curb illegal activity.

 

Numerous barries exist, including heavy lobbying power by the quadding sector, apathy among those being effected, elected officials that have other priorities, etc. However, Harps had a good suggestion to write to your officials. The only way we can protect our resources is if we speak up. Other recommendations would be to get involved with organizations that share your view (either by volunteering or donating $$), and even having a friendly conversation with other users. Heck, a few nice words and education about the impact to our land goes a long way to creating common ground....

 

 

Thanks some good thoughts here...

The multi-tiered approach was used in the planning and creation of Kananaskis country. I was at university at the time and many of the environment and geog. profs were involved in the planning and often discussed it in their classes. The west country is big and has space for everyone. There are areas that could even be used for the of roaders. But it all comes down to a gov't willing to plan it and to enforce it.

[SupremeLeader]

I agree there is a long way to go here. Education and enforcement is the key. We should not ban activities just because fools do not follow the rules. The open camping discussion is a great example. Just because some abuse it we should not ban open camping. We have no problem introducing new laws and regulations, yet we seem to lack the resources to enforce the existing ones....

 

Quading, ATVing etc. should be banned from all but a few designated areas; there is nothing positive about these modes of transportation being used in sensitive wilderness areas (except perhaps by law enforcement of for rescue operations).

 

I do agree, however, that the open camping situation is more complex.

[wtforward]

And just what does everyone think that major change should be ? Sure there is two

sides to the story but you have seen in the press what happens when a MLA tries

to represent his constituents...you get the boot. Until there is a political

change in the province or at least a viable opposition in the Legislature nothing,

I repeat nothing is going to change. Keep that in mine the next time you

put your X in the polling booth....for those of you that still vote. We can

set aside a billion or two for a subsidy to assist the oil and gas industry

in CO2 sequestering but we can't put some more enforcement into the

field to protect the environment and keep the 'rape and pillage' down

to a dull roar. Why ? Because it is not a priority and not important

enough as in 'vote getter'.

 

 

[SupremeLeader]

And just what does everyone think that major change should be ? Sure there is two

sides to the story but you have seen in the press what happens when a MLA tries

to represent his constituents...you get the boot. Until there is a political

change in the province or at least a viable opposition in the Legislature nothing,

I repeat nothing is going to change. Keep that in mine the next time you

put your X in the polling booth....for those of you that still vote. We can

set aside a billion or two for a subsidy to assist the oil and gas industry

in CO2 sequestering but we can't put some more enforcement into the

field to protect the environment and keep the 'rape and pillage' down

to a dull roar. Why ? Because it is not a priority and not important

enough as in 'vote getter'.

 

Indeed.

[SupremeLeader]

Some fairly grandiose assumptions you make here....

 

Grandiose perhaps, but mostly true .

[northfork]

Thanks some good thoughts here...

The multi-tiered approach was used in the planning and creation of Kananaskis country. I was at university at the time and many of the environment and geog. profs were involved in the planning and often discussed it in their classes. The west country is big and has space for everyone. There are areas that could even be used for the of roaders. But it all comes down to a gov't willing to plan it and to enforce it.

 

Bingo.

 

Another point I see here why people are "random camping", as someone else brought up, is the cost to stay in a campground. From $8 - $30 per night, you do get firewood but that's about it. In campgrounds without an attendant you don't get the extra security to leave your stuff there anyway.