thefisherking Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 I have heard that 6 weeks of -15 weather should kill most of these guys off. If thats the case, its the only positive thing that can come from this cold snap. Can anyone on here confirm or deny this? Quote
markd Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 As colder temperatures have set in the Crowsnest Pass and throughout Alberta this week, hopes are high that pine beetles and humans alike are feeling the chilly effects. In the Pass, the mercury first dipped perilously on Saturday, Dec. 13, to a minimal temperature of -25.9C without the wind chill, according to the Weather Network; colder temperatures arrived Sunday, Dec. 14, at -33.7C. The wind chill effect, which further lowered temperatures, causes humans more grief than pine beetles - lucky them. In a telephone interview, Alberta Sustainable Resource Development Public Affairs Officer Duncan MacDonnell explained wind chill doesn't affect mountain pine beetles. "Wind chill doesn't count," says MacDonnell, since the beetle lives below the surface of the pine bark. He explains the "ambient air temperature" should be -40C or below for 12 to 24 hours in order to effectively kill the beetle. However, MacDonnell says current temperatures may still affect pine beetle populations. "You can have cold weather earlier in the season and have winter mortality since they are not winter hardened yet," he explains. Female pine beetles lay their eggs in August, which become larvae and should mature before they grow into fully winter-durable beetles. "It's [currently] early enough in the life cycle of the beetle, we can still have beetle mortality." Quote
dryfly Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 One might assume there is at least some (if not significant) mortality. Will be interesting to see how it plays out the rest of the winter and into summer. Not sure what this means "ambient air temperature should be -40C or below for 12 to 24 hours in order to effectively kill the beetle." If he meant 100 percent mort then the LD50 process is probably in effect. i.e. the beetles will be killed across a range of temperatures depending on maturity etc etc. and 100 percent killed at the specified temps X time. One wonders what the unusually warm temps did to the beetles in November. Maybe they didn't get their nickers on in time for the cold snap in December. Dec 21 hourly temps for the Crowsnest .. second column. It was pretty chilly. Probably nowhere near enough but probably smacked the weaker larvae. Shall see. 00:00 -31.2 00:00 -32.6 02:00 -33.4 03:00 -35.1 04:00 -35.6 05:00 -36.1 06:00 -36.5 07:00 -37.4 08:00 -37.4 09:00 -37.2 10:00 -32.6 11:00 -25.4 12:00 -22.6 Quote
Highlander Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 From what I understand, the cold temperatures are needed early in the winter - October through early December. After that the larvae have produced a sufficient amount of "antifreeze" in their bodies and then it takes at least 2 solid weeks of -40C to kill them. Quote
maxwell Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 well lets hope mother nature took care some of them SOB's!!! Quote
dryfly Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 " then it takes at least 2 solid weeks of -40C to kill them." I doubt if it has ever been that cold for that long in BC or AB since the last ice age. I think that is not what the entomologists say. This is probably the coldest January in living memory...a few of us old farts were around that year. Nowhere close to those specs. We need an entomologist here. Cheers! Clive Quote
Gil Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Here's is the view of one entomologist... Three days of -30 C temperatures across most of the province have partly answered the prayers of those trying to contain the pest that has munched its way through millions of trees and threatens to wipe out millions more across Canada. "I think there's been enough cold to affect the population and keep it from growing," said Allan Carroll, a research scientist with the Canadian Forest Service and one of the country's top pine beetle experts. "I suspect there's going to be a fairly significant decline in the population. It's going to be noticeable." The beetles, now hiding under the bark as larvae, develop a kind of antifreeze in their blood that lets them withstand the winter. It takes several days of -40 C weather to completely wipe them out. Quote
dryfly Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Well it seems the "experts" can't agree...lots of contradiction. http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/mountain_pine...cts.htm#factors Beetles and Cold Weather * Cold weather kills the mountain pine beetle. Mountain pine beetle eggs, pupae and young larvae are the most susceptible to freezing temperatures. * In the winter, temperatures must consistently be below -35 Celsius or -40 Celsius for several straight days to kill off large portions of mountain pine beetle populations. * In the early fall or late spring, sustained temperatures of -25 Celsius can freeze mountain pine beetle populations to death. * A sudden cold snap is more lethal in the fall, before the mountain pine beetles are able to build up their natural anti-freeze (glycerol) levels. * Cold weather is also more effective before it snows. A deep layer of snow on the ground can help insulate mountain pine beetles in the lower part of the tree against outside temperatures. * Wind chill affects mountain pine beetles, but is usually not sustained long enough to significantly increase winter mortality. Quote
rusty Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Clive, I agree completely. This winter (esp this December) has to have put a mark near the record for degree days below zero, and I'll betcha it's even close for degree days below say -20. If this weather doesn't seriously pound the crap out of the beetles, I think it pretty conclusively demonstrates that GW is not the lone cause of the recent population boom. Quote
beedhead Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Thanx for the info Clive....Good stuff...Interesting.... Cheers...Jeff.. Quote
dryfly Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 "GW is not the lone cause of the recent population boom. " Our winters have been warmer--at least fewer severe cold spells. (And I am bloody fine with that.) However, in S-SW Alberta the mean annual temperatures (Env Canada data) have actually declined ever so slightly in the past twenty years. Certainly not statistically significant, but then again there is no actual increase either. The two main reasons for the outbreak are milder winters and the predominance of older pines (>80 yr) because of fire suppression. From here: http://www.srd.gov.ab.ca/forests/health/pe...rts/mpbfaq.aspx Why are the mountain pine beetle infestations becoming more extensive? Modern fire suppression has resulted in large areas of pine forests with over-mature trees, which are more susceptible to beetle attack. Next summer will be most interesting. Quote
Taco Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Damn things are in the Whaleback, gonna be a hell of a fire one day. Picture taken in early Aug of this yr, looking west out of the Porkies, twenty minutes from my house, thats 22x @ the base of that ridge Quote
dryfly Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Yeah Taco, it is not pretty. "gonna be a hell of a fire one day." There was a fire at the south end in about 2006 (thought I had a picture of it...will look more) and it was put out. So is it fair to say, "Too bad the Whaleback fire was suppressed. If we'd not put that fire out there'd be no old pines for the beetles to eat." This eco balance stuff is tricky and sometimes we meddle too much. Then when something goes to hell the eco weenies are all over blaming someone ... and it's never them. Always some other bastard. Quote
Taco Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Fullbore Nimbyism give's me the overwhelming urge kick someone right in the junction of their body Quote
Jeffro Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Taco upon looking at your photo (which is a nice one at that), it kind of looks more idicative of red-belt than pine beetle. I haven't been out that way in a while but I remember the species composition consisting of more douglas fir than pine. That stratified of a red layer usually is a result of the previous winters thermals drying out the needles. Having said that, I could be completely out to lunch as well Fire suppression and mans uncanny ability to pretend like he is smarter than nature always gets us in to some kind of predicament like pine beetle. Truth be told if they really gave a damn about lodgepole pine they would let it burn to hell and back because without fire the seeds will very very very (did I mention very) rarely release from the cone. Lodgepole evolved with fire and now we have taken fire out of the equation, and when we do let it burn the BUI is so fricken high everything gets nuked. Much the same with our grasslands which had a frequent burn rate, and now it's been manny moons since much of our native grasslands have had a healthy rebirth. Something about the beetles that hasn't been dwelled on too much is host selection. We've mentioned they go for the mature pines, but what rarely gets mentioned is that they cannot survive in younger generation pines. I would have to dig through heaps of old notes which I aint about to do, but it was somewhere in the ballpark of 4" diameter at breast height and smaller are not actively chosen for egg laying. These smaller trees don't have the insulative capacity to protect the bugs in the early season meaning all hope is not lost when a stand goes belly up. Of course the bugs need to move on before these trees can flourish Quote
Taco Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 You may be right about the red belt, I was a little surprised when I noticed the red. Quote
Jeffro Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 You may be right about the red belt, I was a little surprised when I noticed the red. I think the porkies are still east of the epidemic, but I haven't bothered to look at any maps updated in the last while. On the flip side the price of lumber with blue-stained fungus is on the rise. There is always a silver lining. Quote
dryfly Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Jeffro, The Whaleback is not in the Porkies. The SRD maps would indicate the beetle is indeed in the general area. However, based on pictures of red belt patterning on the internet (reliable sources) you are probably correct. I took pictures of what we were told is pine beetle damage at Whitetail Lake (BC) last Sept and can post if you wish. More patchy than the red belt. All very interesting stuff. Cheers! Clive Quote
Jeffro Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Jeffro, The Whaleback is not in the Porkies. Thats what I always thought too until some in the expertise told me I was wrong so now I just lump 'em together. deep down my beliefs have never changed though. I know it as the whaleback and not the porkies and my past experience with the C5 FMP labels it as such. However arguing whether it is the porkies or the whaleback with ones superior can lead to unnecessary problems so to speak.... Cheers, Jeff Quote
flyfishfairwx Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 C.L.M. Explain C.L.M. I do not understand! Quote
Taco Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Well I'll throw another one @ you 2. The gubberment may call all that moraine ridge on both sides of the OMR that but what was originally called the whaleback is a single ridge south of Maycroft Quote
Taco Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Explain C.L.M. I do not understand! http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/CLM Quote
Taco Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 take your pick but I believe it's the 5th one down Quote
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