The Ethical Question

[Hawgstoppah]

again, I dont get it. If you got "morals" or not, it's a question of "do I fish, or take up knitting" not a question of who fishing where and when and trying to make people look bad or feel guilty. There's no need. This is a ridiculous fued brought up every year, and UNPROVEN to harm fish at this location. If you got morals, please by all means do not fish, becuase this time of year in a certain spot, or later in the year in the same river, your playing with the same damn fish. so, please, don't go, as there will be more room for the rest of us who DO go fishing.

[reevesr1]

So I'm only going to state my opinion on this and not debate anyone.

 

My favorite saltwater fish spawns all summer long. Every full moon. If I didn't fish them when they spawn I wouldn't fish all summer.

 

The Crowsnest has no spawning tribs. How many people fish there right now?

 

Every steelhead and salmon go into rivers to spawn. Seems to me they get fished a bit.

 

There are river's in BC that if you say the name, everyone gets mad. It is covered up in the late summer fishing for Bulls that are staging to spawn.

 

Rainbows are now moving towards their spawning rivers. Some have probably gone up, most have not. Everyone knows where. Studies have shown very little to no impact of fishing for these when they are still in the Bow. If you don't like to see people fishing the confluence, where is the line? 1 mile from the HW? 2 miles? The entire Bow?

 

I fished there this week. I'll go again. I see absolutely no issue with it. If you do, then don't fish there. If you think the laws should be changed, come up with a valid reason to change it and I'll stop fishing there. But anyone who calls me a fishing novice (*hit, maybe I am. Only been fishing for 45 yrs) or someone who doesn't care can frankly stick it.

 

And I didn't vote in the poll, because frankly, that I don't care about.

 

Edit: Brian, I should have read your replies first. I could have just said "ditto".

 

Wanna go fishing this week? I know a place..

 

 

Oh, and want to know why I fish there? BECAUSE ITS FUN!!!!

[Harps]

The Crowsnest has no spawning tribs. How many people fish there right now?

 

The CNR is closed from the Falls to Hwy 3 to protect spawners and above E. Hillcrest Bridge for the same reason.

I think that protects the majority of the spawners plus there are limited waders in early spring and during runoff... and hopefully those that wade see the redds to avoid them, and don't fish off them.

[reevesr1]

Thanks Harps. My ignorance of the Crow showed on my rant.

[maxwell]

playdoh u got it.. kind of like the dryfly elitist deal. don do u wish too ge tin on this?... or any elitism...... plastic versus wood rods..... same deal. have it u arrogant fools! diss all u wish... ill still go were i please.... and do as i wish.....

 

pkk thanks for the info on teh closures for them steelies.. good to no!

[Hawgstoppah]

The CNR is closed from the Falls to Hwy 3 to protect spawners and above E. Hillcrest Bridge for the same reason.

I think that protects the majority of the spawners plus there are limited waders in early spring and during runoff... and hopefully those that wade see the redds to avoid them, and don't fish off them.

 

Point is, if your even there, your fishing for fish actually in the river where they are going to be on the spawn, or actually spawning. The redds are there and clearly visible, and that's where they spawn. Above the falls right through the lease right up to Leitch and all the way up to the closed spot above east hillcrest is all full of redds this time of year. Most people that see a bunch of fish sitting on redds will not realize there on the redds and throw a line in at them anyways. I'd guess most people when wading it don't even look for redds (and there at a lot of places you would normally use to cross).

 

But the debate is only about the fishing for staging rainbows at the highwood, that's the BIG problem.... yup...

[Hawgstoppah]

and I am not trying to promote a closure on the crow, I'm trying to point out that a lot of times it's the pot calling the kettle black in these stupid debates every spring. every one of you guys that say it's unethical, has fished the bow during a hot summer afternoon, or in may when all the rainbows are weak and post-spawn. So is it ok then, and not now? This retarded debate makes me sick....

[reevesr1]

It doesn't happen often, but this debate caused me to have a revelation. An epiphany, if you will.

 

It is completely unethical to fish the mouth of the Highwood, at any time of year. Particularly on the east side of the river. Particularly in the morning, though it is sorta unethical in the afternoon too. I'm comprising a list of 15 other places I know of where fish congregate (like deep chop, riffles, runs, etc.) that it is unethical as well. Also, I've decided casting to a rising fish (cuz you know he's there, is eating and therefore vulnerable) is skirting the line of ethicism as well. Hell, let's just extend that to any visible fish.

 

All you guys after the challenge should always fish long flat sections of river with no depth changes or contrasts with no visible rises or cruising fish. Dry flies only. Have fun!! Let us heathens know how you do.

[Weedy1]

Am I missing something here? Is there a debate going on? If there is someone please explain who's on what side of the debate. Thanks.

[Harps]

Hey Rick and Brian,

I was not in anyway commenting on ethics of fishing... no comment on your ignorance, Rick .

 

I have my own opinions on the subject, but I'll keep them to myself.

 

Eitherway fishing at a barrier is wrong and illegal, and I think anglers should be educated enough to know on their own that fishing off redds is wrong.

[Tako]

Hey Rick and Brian,

I was not in anyway commenting on ethics of fishing... no comment on your ignorance, Rick .

 

I have my own opinions on the subject, but I'll keep them to myself.

 

Eitherway fishing at a barrier is wrong and illegal, and I think anglers should be educated enough to know on their own that fishing off redds is wrong.

 

And earns em a shot to the head from me. Been a few scraps on the chinooks redds out here

[reevesr1]

Am I missing something here? Is there a debate going on? If there is someone please explain who's on what side of the debate. Thanks.

 

I think Brian is on the Fishing is OK side, but I may be reading him incorrectly

Max agrees with him, I think

 

Harps won't say. Chicken.

 

Brent is against it, so is PKK and Playdoh. As are some guys from page 1, but I'm too lazy to go back and look.

 

I've decided all fishing is unethical. You should all quit and give me your stuff.

[PlayDoh]

If its not poaching, I'm not against it. Thats really the only fact that matters, at least for those like me who don't know more then the professional biologist who regulate our fisheries.

 

Since I've never fished it, I can't comment on whether I'd would personally find it either, too easy or unfair. or even notice how many were stacked and exactly where. That was my point about novices (whom I incorrectly assumed were the majority there, likely), but a novice would pose less of an impact to fish mortality.

 

I hope I didn't offend anyone, rickr included. I most certainly wouldn't classify you as a novice. I honestly don't see why the debate heats up. I don't really care if people would condone my fishing if I felt good about it. Its completely possible to find something unethical or immoral, and yet discuss the matter with those who do not. I also don't see how discussing a potential negative impact, whether its falsely perceived or not, is wrong, a web forum is designed for discussion.

 

Actually I think the same reason some topics get hot, is what makes this site great,..... passion. If you find fishing so enjoyable that you spend hundreds or thousands of dollars towards it, and you like studying little bugs, and tying crazy knots, ect, you qualify for being passionate about fishing.

[Tako]

If its not poaching, I'm not against it. Thats really the only fact that matters, at least for those like me who don't know more then the professional biologist who regulate our fisheries.

 

Since I've never fished it, I can't comment on whether I'd would personally find it either, too easy or unfair. or even notice how many were stacked and exactly where. That was my point about novices (whom I incorrectly assumed were the majority there, likely), but a novice would pose less of an impact to fish mortality.

 

I hope I didn't offend anyone, rickr included. I most certainly wouldn't classify you as a novice. I honestly don't see why the debate heats up. I don't really care if people would condone my fishing if I felt good about it. Its completely possible to find something unethical or immoral, and yet discuss the matter with those who do not. I also don't see how discussing a potential negative impact, whether its falsely perceived or not, is wrong, a web forum is designed for discussion.

 

Actually I think the same reason some topics get hot, is what makes this site great,..... passion. If you find fishing so enjoyable that you spend hundreds or thousands of dollars towards it, and you like studying little bugs, and tying crazy knots, ect, you qualify for being passionate about fishing.

 

YAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! Finally someone willing to admit they know less than the bios!!!!! Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

[pkk]

 

or steelhead on a migration (there migrating for one purpose, spring summer or winter, c'mon...),

 

Yes they are migrating for one purpose but the summer runs are in the river for a long time (spawn in spring).And like I said most of those rivers close dec31 which means the fish are left untouched for a few months to do their thing.

I definately understand your point. Is fishing ethical at all?

[troutlover]

you know what i think is ironic is that from this debate it will dramaticly increase the pressure on this spot because of this disscusion thoes who have thought of giving a try now will this debate has had 788 views and is discussed every year i know it's not a secret place but it gives motivation to go give it a try.

[reevesr1]

I don't really care if people would condone my fishing if I felt good about it.

 

Nice quote.

 

My problem is though I don't really care for myself if others condone it, for some reason it gets my hackles up when people decide they don't want to fish any style, then play the ethical card when others do it. (and I'm not saying that's what you did)

 

Anyway, no offense taken PlayDoh. At least no long term offense!

[toolman]

I think that the folks who oppose the concept of fishing at a natural barrier for staging trout, feel that it is un-sportsman. For some folks, Flyfishing is supposed to be about sportsmanship. On some rivers, nymphing with indicators is considered un-sportsman. Fishing for Atlantics with a sink tip/weight on the fly or line, is considered unsportsman on many of the rivers in the Maritime provinces and is illegal on the waters where I grew up. So, I don't think this discussion is really about ethics, but mostly about sportsmanship.

[headscan]

That was my point about novices (whom I incorrectly assumed were the majority there, likely), but a novice would pose less of an impact to fish mortality.

 

Have to disagree with this. I think a novice is far more likely to have an impact on fish mortality because they may not handle caught fish as well, fight them quickly, and release them properly. I helped a guy land and release a fish the other day down there. He didn't get the fish out of the current and into slack water quickly which would have shortened the fight. Then he had trouble getting the hook out of the fish. I offered my hemostats to help, but the problem was that he hadn't debarbed his hook. I had to crush the barb while the fish was still hooked to get it out with minimal damage to the fish. I pointed all this out to him afterwards so hopefully he'll remember for the next time.

[PlayDoh]

At least no long term offense!

You mean like a San Jose Shark? lol Go Flames Go !

 

Headscan, you make a very good point, landing trout is a skill that requires experience, which comes at the expense of the fish.

 

sportsmanship is a much better term for I think the original posters inquiry. It may have not been perceived as derogatory to those who fish at the specific staging locations of any river, as opposed to 'Ethical' which could imply criticism.

 

Another irony is how you can ask a question or add your opinion with the best intentions, and involuntarily offend people.

[Bowcane]

As someone who is a 'new' Albertan and to this board, I believe is a total non-issue. If you want to see 'ethics', take a trip to Ontario and watch the gory spectacle when the rainbows, browns and salmon run out of the Great lakes. It makes a Roman Circus look like Girl Guides baking cookies! You have in no particular order, people spearing, clubbing, netting, snagging, seen a guy with a shot gun once, netting, plus the roe baggers and a few guys actually fly-fishing. Seen a guy slash open a male browns belly and start cursing that it had no roe in it! Also that aint crowded people, try sticking about 250+ guys in the 500m of the Highwood that's open, its a daily occurrence there. Two points on all this, one, if you dont like it, dont fish there(or at all; just repeating whats been said). And, most guys here have no idea how good they have it here either. Alberta is heaven, Ontario is hell. I for one have no problem with it (fishing for the bows), not breaking the law, C&R the fish, play them quickly, no 1/2hr photo shoot, etc, etc. Maybe I have come off a bit hard here and do apologize, but I just cant believe this stuff. Most of my fishing buddies in Ontario havn't been out since late November (brutal snow falls, low and high water, very late spring)and when they do get out will dance with joy if they catch one 12"(likely stocked) trout. ( I heard one guy down at FC bit*hing that he ONLY caught two trout over 20" yet this year!) I think the nearness to such phenomenal fishing resources has made us very contempt of what we have. Perhaps the average Alberta fly fisher should spend a year or two in Southern Ontario so they can appreciate what they have here. I know this got somewhat off topic but it did push the wrong button on the wrong day, and again I apologize if it is taken offence to any-one. It was not my intention.

[fisher26]

As someone who is a 'new' Albertan and to this board, I believe is a total non-issue.

 

 

 

There is an extreme danger of comparing places then deciding something is "a total non-issue". With people flooding here everyday our fishing resources will be under pressure (they are all ready), and we will see a decline in the quality of fishing throughout Alberta.

 

If we stay particular, and on top of things maybe angling opportunities will improve... But from my point of view Alberta can go way further to enhance fishing, and ecological conservation. The reality is there is always someone worse off than you are. Compare our fishing to Ontario then say "o well let this behavior slide, because back home we do that" will only cause extreme pressure on our resources. Sure Africa doesn't have many fishing opportunities so were lucky even to fish here, lets not worry about this new dam, or excessive harvesting etc.

 

In terms of the Highwood-bow-spawning thing I don't really have a huge issue with it, but it is essential we still have these conversations for risk of becoming ignorant and lose the quality fisheries we have become use to.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

When judging if it is ethical or not you have to look at the full picture. If you have minimal mortality and are not culling fish that are in pre-spawn or spawning behavoir then there is no harm in a well managed and healthy population. If you are fishing for them when they are concentrating their numbers in such a way to cause increased retention by anglers then management of the harvest is susceptible to population crash as has happened with many species in Alberta such as Sturgeon, mountain whitefish, pike, trout etc. Catch and keep in that instance is a poor management strategy.

 

I believe that playing pre spawn fish hard and then poorly releasing them can cause increased mortality. Bait fishing and other fishing methods with increased mortality can cause stress on a healthy population that is pressured hard at migration bottlenecks. Poor handling can also cause egg problems or reduced fecundity.

 

Educated fishermen should not be prevented from enjoying the sport whenever possible but sadly we must step back as a result of protecting the resource from those that may abuse it.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[Bowcane]

Fisher26, I couldn't agree more with your comments, we don't want that spectacle from out east here! And because it is allowed to continue doesn't make it right. No one province (or individual) has the monopoly on stupidity, complatency or righteousness.

 

However I find it odd that this topic has 47 posts (mine included, just as much to blame) and 1114 views. The post about the pond at Policemans has 5 posts and 262 views. (I've wrote my letter to the appropriate authorities) Which has the potential for more serious impacts? Are we focusing our efforts in the right area?

 

One of the running jokes (unfortunately its more truth than fiction) about the brook trout streams in Southern Ontario goes something like this; (something to be learned for all of us)

 

"A flyfisher stops and asks a farmer spreading liquid manure on his stream side field and asks where the good brook trout stream is. He is told to go down the road to the new housing development and turn right, proceed to the bottled water plant taking thousands of litres a day from the aquifer and turn left. Go past the below the water table gravel pit and the bulldozers working at the asphalt plant and you will cross the stream. But I wouldn't bother says the farmer," the damn bait fisherman from Toronto have cleaned it out!"

[reevesr1]

Fisher26, I couldn't agree more with your comments, we don't want that spectacle from out east here! And because it is allowed to continue doesn't make it right. No one province (or individual) has the monopoly on stupidity, complatency or righteousness.

 

However I find it odd that this topic has 47 posts (mine included, just as much to blame) and 1114 views. The post about the pond at Policemans has 5 posts and 262 views. (I've wrote my letter to the appropriate authorities) Which has the potential for more serious impacts? Are we focusing our efforts in the right area?

 

One of the running jokes (unfortunately its more truth than fiction) about the brook trout streams in Southern Ontario goes something like this; (something to be learned for all of us)

 

"A flyfisher stops and asks a farmer spreading liquid manure on his stream side field and asks where the good brook trout stream is. He is told to go down the road to the new housing development and turn right, proceed to the bottled water plant taking thousands of litres a day from the aquifer and turn left. Go past the below the water table gravel pit and the bulldozers working at the asphalt plant and you will cross the stream. But I wouldn't bother says the farmer," the damn bait fisherman from Toronto have cleaned it out!"

 

Very true. People really just want to see the argument, which I certainly contributed to (because I like to argue, it's fun). The issue doesn't matter so much. And I'm as much of the problem as anyone. I've been on this thread many times. The Policeman's thread once. That sucks when you think about it.

 

Also, the real issues can be much, much harder to see and change(as your running joke points out), whereas blaming a visible group, particularly one you are not a part of, is much easier.

 

Fisher26,

I liked your viewpoint as well. What we need to do is state our opinions without questioning the motives of others. That is debate. What this subject tends to turn into is a shouting match and a contest of wit. Again, I'm as much, or more, to blame than many. I hope I can remember that.