Bullshead

[Tako]

Yes, they grow faster. Typically not by much, because most lakes are overstocked. If you took two barren lakes with an established aquatic food base and put the same number of AF3N trips in one, and diploids in another, you would notice a difference in growth. Problem being, noone has done this on the ground, and I hope they do soon. There's going to be 30 or so lakes like Silkstone and Lovett created near Coal Valley in the coming years. Those lakes could be one heck of a playground for seeing what works and what doesn't.....

[WoollyBuggered]

Yes, they grow faster. Typically not by much, because most lakes are overstocked. If you took two barren lakes with an established aquatic food base and put the same number of AF3N trips in one, and diploids in another, you would notice a difference in growth. Problem being, noone has done this on the ground, and I hope they do soon. There's going to be 30 or so lakes like Silkstone and Lovett created near Coal Valley in the coming years. Those lakes could be one heck of a playground for seeing what works and what doesn't.....

 

What does overstocking have to do with comparing 2N vs. 3N growth? Absolutely nothing. Variables such as stocking rates are consistant between the 2 treatments in comparative studies. In addition, before you make a bold statement regarding ploidy status and growth rates, you should check out what the data shows. Because its not what you believe.

[monger]

WoolyBuggered, is there no difference in growth in the females after sexual maturation? Do you have a reference I can get educated with?

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Hey Woollybuggered

 

I too am interested in this study you refer to. Most studies appear to target survivability, disease suseptibility and growth rates to age 2. Afterwards I can not find much on a simple internet search. As a ton of energy go into the reproductive process, reason should dictate from age 3 on that energy would go into growth rather than procreation.

 

When referencing the study, please provide a link and check the methodology on what age range the study focused on. My recollection while in fisheries was that growth rates over the life of the fish is increased. New studies to the contrary would be neat to read.

 

Thanks.

 

Sun

[Tako]

Umm a lake with fish present will reduce growth rate. Side by side, triploids will grow faster, bigger and healthier than their 2N counterparts......thats the purpose of triploids.....

[WoollyBuggered]

Hey Woollybuggered

 

I too am interested in this study you refer to. Most studies appear to target survivability, disease suseptibility and growth rates to age 2. Afterwards I can not find much on a simple internet search. As a ton of energy go into the reproductive process, reason should dictate from age 3 on that energy would go into growth rather than procreation.

 

When referencing the study, please provide a link and check the methodology on what age range the study focused on. My recollection while in fisheries was that growth rates over the life of the fish is increased. New studies to the contrary would be neat to read.

 

Thanks.

 

Sun

 

I didn't mention a particular study which makes it a little difficult to reference it. And referencing on a BB? Tough crowd....... You may think reason should dictate a greater investment in somatic growth of 3N fish compared to 2N but research simply does not show it. Have you ever considered all of the negative feedback loops in the pituitary-gonadal system? What if a specific hormone is lacking in triploids b/c of the reduced gonadal growth and the lack of that hormone is necessary for growth?................. Have you ever wondered why so few triploid studies continue past the maturity time of their 2N counterparts? Triploid studies by guys like Benfey have been going on for a long time. So why no results? The vast majority of triploids die before the supposed advantages are seen. Hard to offer an advantage when the fish is dead. The FFSBC has done studies but do you see results of increased growth in triploidy. Nope.

 

One thing we need to consider is not just growth but the full meal deal including growth, survival, stress reponse etc........ The theory on triploids is great but its just that, a theory. No more no less.

[monger]

Thanks for your insights WollyBuggered.

 

Here is some more to read for the rest of us poorly informed folks.

 

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/OHRC/materials/...SterileFish.pdf

 

Looks like not much difference in growth, but perhaps a bit longer life for 3N. I guess the results are not very conclusive considering all the different studies.

One thing that is positive about 3N females at Bullshead is that they will be less susceptible to angling if they are not milling along the shoreline in April. Perhaps a few more will stay out of Medicine Hat freezers and be seen jumping at the end of Clive's line during one of the wind storms he brings from his house.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

hey monger

 

When scanning the literature (if you can call internet browsing literature) I did see the occational reference to some fish species still doing some spawning type behavior. How about we just inject all fish with growth hormone daily for 1 year before release?

 

One thing Alberta never considers is actually getting a larger stocking strain in. Mono culture for trout seems antiquated...

[dryfly]

"seen jumping at the end of Clive's line during one of the wind storms he brings from his house. "

 

Amen to that. I sure have the wind jinx at Bullshead. I should start windsurfing .. THAT will make the wind go away.

 

A sidenote....We also look forward to Police evolving into a decent fishery (which it has been on occasion in the past by all accounts) with stable pops of larger fish. There are a few there now, but they are not the norm according to recent test netting. Hopefully the spring test angle will shed some light on fish demographics at the start of the new regs.

[Weedy1]

Give me a nice day, 20 degrees say, little wind, 18 - 22 inch fish with the odd hog, and I'll be one happy guy. They don't have to be monstrous to enjoy the day. Remember it's fishing, not whaling.

[beedhead]

From what I have read...and have read a fair bit...And some P.M's with bloom...The best thing thats going to come from our new southern A.B. Triploid is...We are not going to have such a slaughter at Bullshead in the spring...and thats fine by me!!!...Do to the fact... We are not going to have the bonkers come out for theire one fish and leave...Day after day...and in some cases come back the same day for another.

 

 

 

Cheers all.....Jeff.....C&R...

[beedhead]

I'm not sure bloom gets enuff reconizion for what he has done for this fishery...Years ago it was a all right fishery, with large trout...but very few...and hard to catch at best. The lake was drained by Ranchers/farmers, and they had the rights to the water...and for a couple years...was dry...The rains came...filled it up and...bloom got a petician going around Med Hat to get it re-stocked.. and sure he talked with Terry Clayton about it...And the lake was re-stocked...Now we got one frick of a fishery.. Is that about the way it went bloom?

[bloom]

BH has been a lot of luck too, sort of turned into a perfect storm as I know Muir up north is having a heck of a time trying to get what we have here and I know they have put a lot more work into it than any of us.

 

Trips are still in the 'experimental' stage in AB right now. BH is not the only lake getting trips (a few others are...those that are at risk of having rainbows contaminating natives), so hopefully we'll have a better idea after a few years. And I'm definitely not the expert on trips...I know for sure by some of the posts that some here know lots more than I do.

 

There's another fisheries round table coming up so we may get some more detailed information then.

[beedhead]

BH has been a lot of luck too,

 

Your to modest.

[kipper]

I guess we want to know more precisely how fast the fish grow in Bullshead? The fish in there at the present time put on about 1 1/2 lbs a year..this is growth rate that has been going on for years and is approx. the same as Police Outpost has been for the last 25 years. If triploids are going to grow twice as fast ..boy! are we in for some fantastic fishing. Last season I couldn't catch a small fish in Bullshead if my life depended on it. I don't know where the stocked ones went but I did catch 1 that was about 13 or 14 inches long..but it was 4 or 5 inches shorter than the majority of the fish I caught last year..perhaps it was a runt In any case I will record and send in any data I collect.

[bloom]

Since Bullshead has started up (finally), here's the info we need again:

 

2. Due to the stocking of the trips, we are going to need to collect some baseline date. What we need is to track the size of the fish that were stocked LAST SPRING...we are looking for the 1 year old diploids. Having this data will give us something to compare the triploids to next year. So what we need you do to is:

-measure all the small fish (~15'' or less), record the date, and send the information to Terry Clayton at Terry.Clayton@gov.ab.ca or pm it to me here.

 

April, May and June should be enough time to collect the data. The only problem is that you guys will have to target the small fish in Spring

 

 

So please collect some data and send it to Terry, or myself. He's looking for TOTAL LENGTH...don't worry about fork length, or pinching tails etc.

[WoollyBuggered]

He's looking for TOTAL LENGTH...don't worry about fork length, or pinching tails etc.

 

You may want to define/describe total length without a pinched tail so that every body understands this and the results are comparable. I can see this causing a bit of confusion among anglers. Good luck with the project!

[bloom]

The total length we are looking for is what you would get when you lay the fish against your measuring tape, and take a measurement to the furthest part of his tail. Just the simplest measurement. Take a quick look, and then get them back in the water...most fish will be between 13 and 15''.

 

Thanks, and please collect as much data as you can.