Cormorants

[fishinhogdaddy]

I have had the dis-pleasure of watching a flock of cormorants fishing this morning in the Elbow river. For those of you who don't know what these birds do, they are a scourage of rivers and lakes in the East and are now establishing their presence in our lakes and streams in Alberta. They have the ability to dive up to 50' can eat enormous amounts of fish and are a real danger to our fish and our stocking programs. But, being that they are a protected species (I think) there is little we can do to "cull" them. In doing some research, I have found areas of Ontario that have huge flocks of these predators decimating lakes and rivers as they have voracious appetites. Their excrement is extremely toxic and has the ability to kill trees and vegetation that surround their nesting sites. They have "cleaned" out certain area lakes and rivers in Ontario and many in the East are concerned about their increasing numbers from which I have learned are multiplying at an alarming rate. Now that they are establishing their numbers in the West, it won't be long before their behaviour will be recognized as a huge detriment to our fish numbers. What can be done? Who has done research on these birds and their ability to impact the fish numbers out here in the West? Probably no one. They differ from the Pelican as they can swim extremely fast and have the ability to swim long distances underwater. The Pelican is larger, slower and accoring to Guides on the Missouri in Montana, usually are only able to catch whitefish as according to them, trout are faster and have better ability to escape predation than whitties.

Anybody have any more info you can add to this thread? I am only commenting on the research I have done and I am by no means an"expert". But, I do know first hand how they can "clean" out populations of stocked and wild fish.

FHD

[bigbowtrout]

I found this good read.

 

http://www.innovationalberta.com/article.php?articleid=684

[Harps]

People cause the issue with fisheries... not cormorants.

They are not a danger to our fisheries and only a danger to fish farms 'cause that is a situation with tons of fish piled in a small tank with no cover. They kill much less riparian vegetation than people do to build big usless houses with a view (in the floodplain). They don't clean out lakes (less than the bait fishermen and rec anglers harvest). THey were here first and part of a balanced ecosystem.

 

From an earlier rant of mine:

"Shoot'em" A typical response when its not understood. There seem to be less fish and that bird eats fish... Then we start killing off the suckers for eating trout eggs, then the trout don't have young suckers to eat, and the remaining predator birds eat young trout 'cause there's no slower small fish to eat, then the trout populations crash and everybody complains that they have to pay taxes to stock more trout. Of course the whole time those few remaining birds are being shot 'cause they're eating the fish.

 

And Great Blue Herons, egrets, and other herons also kill trees with their colonies... as do people building big dumb houses with a lake view.

 

On Lake Ontario Cormorants (double crested):

 

QUOTE

Scientific research has repeatedly proven that cormorants have no substantial negative ecological impact on fish populations. In fact, the majority of their diet is alewife and round goby, both introduced species that have disrupted Great Lake's ecosystems. Regardless, the Ontario government and other jurisdictions are continuing to kill cormorants - to pacify a small but aggressive special interest lobby.

 

A better solution would be to stop building roads and culverts that block fish migrations, stop throwing rock along the banks that prevents vegetation from growing, stop paving the watersheds and dumping chemicals in the water, get rid of invasives, and etc... you get the point. People are the biggest impact on the fisheries, whether bait fisheries, commercial fishing, recreational fishing, or expanding into our watershed. The cormorants Aren't the problem, people are! (and... increased fishing pressure resulting in decrease of fish size = easier predation by cormorants.)

 

We have screwed the ecosystem and continue to screw it with bandaid mis-management. For some reason folks still think it's easier to manage fish and wildlife rather than the people using the resources.

Less harvest, less riparian and instream destruction, less chemical impacts, etc will go alot further than oiling the eggs in a hundred cormorant nests while letting people cut the neighbouring trees down and harvest the fish that the cormorants never got.

 

I know some folks on here will disagree... so bring it!

[Taco]

Where'd y'all find the high horse Paul? [insert the pokey sticky thingy here/]

[seby]

"For some reason folks still think it's easier to manage fish and wildlife rather than the people using the resources"

 

I 100% agree people are the problem and hopefully the solution.

[Harps]

Where'd y'all find the high horse Paul? [insert the pokey sticky thingy here/]

 

I like the natives...

 

Actually I think I was just having a bad day and had to yell.... I'm off to England this week so that should fix the nerves!!

 

[BBBrownie]

I found this good read.

 

http://www.innovationalberta.com/article.php?articleid=684

 

 

Haha. Andrea! Andrea and the Lac La Biche crew have done some great predator dynamics work with cormorants walleye and perch.

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

I was with some EK guys last year and the HATE the birds! According to them they were an EU bird fist and then taken over here, but im not 100%

 

I say try to take out the intruders that we put in and leave natuer to do teh rest.

 

just my 2C

[reevesr1]

Cormorants have been on the Gulf Coast my whole life. Tons of them. Fishing is pretty good there.

 

Correlation does not always infer causation. Lots of cormorants and declining fish populations (if they are truly declining) may be correlated, but that in no way means fish pops are declining because of cormorants.

 

That said, I've never really liked cormorants. They are ugly and you can't eat them.

[seanbritt]

Harps, I fully agree with you. Too bad there wasn't some type of program to selectively cull the other species you mention that are the true cause of 99% of the environmental degredation of the planet.

[dryfly]

A bit OT ...

 

rickr said "Correlation does not always infer causation." and that is an excellent point. We see cormorants frequently but not in numbers or concentrations to be of a major concern generally. But here are probably smaller lakes and ponds where they have an impact.

 

However, I firmly believe pelicans have reduced fish populations on some streams and are a serious cause of trout decline. (Have we had a good pelican bashing lately?! )

 

Below is a shot of a mid-size reach in the Oldman drainage. This was a great (great) trout stream a few years ago and access was controlled and difficult so we know there was no poaching happening. Now we all know that fish populations come and go with the years seemingly going though cycles. However, on this stream within two years of starting to see pelicans in numbers the trout fishing literally evaporated. (If pelicans were the cause [if], the pops should rebound because, as of last year there were no fish here, and there is little nothing for the vermin birds to eat. Just not worth their efforts.)

I rec'd am email last year from a retired senior manager/biologist with SRD and he ask WTF was up with this stream i.e. why no fish here? I showed him this picture. That sealed it for him.

This is a "shelf" river with a few deeper pools..but generally rather shallow and perfect for pelicans to herd fish and feed.

 

Like rickr said "Correlation does not always infer causation." All of this is circumstantial, but IMHO these large fish eaters are a reason for concern on some waters.

 

 

This injury could (could) have been cause by the sharp bill of a pelican. This picture was taken 200 m from the above picture.

 

 

In addition to swallowing fish whole (which they are famous for) it seems that this sharp bill may also cause injury as shown above.

 

[TerryH]

Good points Clive -- I share your concerns. Last time I was at Police Outpost Lake (back in July), there were two or three pelicans on the lake. Maybe we need a pelican hunting season. Terry

[zed]

can you eat pelicans?

[Harps]

Good points Clive -- I share your concerns. Last time I was at Police Outpost Lake (back in July), there were two or three pelicans on the lake. Maybe we need a pelican hunting season. Terry

 

Two or three pelicans and 30 fishermen in tubes, and how many on the shore??

 

Do we need a float tube hunting permit too....

 

Clive, there are hundreds of reasons for a year of low catch rates, from weather to food availablility, to habitat changes, and fishing pressure. Pelicans might be one factor on a river, but by and large they are going to target easy fish (schools of fish that they can round up and scoop). I don't think the pelicans are an issue to trout populations on any of our rivers (and I say that with all the confidence I can in my position).

Plus we all know, gov't employees lose the ability to effectively fish (or determine real fish populations) as soon as they call themselves managers, especially those from SRD.

[Ricinus]

Plus we all know, gov't employees lose the ability to effectively fish (or determine real fish populations) as soon as they call themselves managers, especially those from SRD.

 

 

Harps

 

Lose the ability to fish or are effectively Muzzled?

 

Regards Mike

[reevesr1]

Clive,

I've been around Pelicans my whole life as well. We used them as fish locators, because they would fly around searching and when they saw fish they would dive down to eat. But they didn't eat the game fish, they ate the same bait fish the game fish were eating. In flats fishing, find the bait you find the fish. We used the pelicans, and seagulls, and to a much lesser extent comorants to help us find bait. I personally have never heard any saltwater angler complain about pelicans eating game fish. Now, I fully understand that the ecology on a flat is night and day to a river. But it's not like big fish were not there, its just that pelicans never ate them. Maybe because they are harder to find on flats? Don't know, but I find myself siding with Paul (and that could be a first, at least publicly) and say that I just don't see Pelicans as a big problem. And I say that with no authority whatsoever!

 

 

[Guest Sundancefisher]

I have had the dis-pleasure of watching a flock of cormorants fishing this morning in the Elbow river. For those of you who don't know what these birds do, they are a scourage of rivers and lakes in the East and are now establishing their presence in our lakes and streams in Alberta. They have the ability to dive up to 50' can eat enormous amounts of fish and are a real danger to our fish and our stocking programs. But, being that they are a protected species (I think) there is little we can do to "cull" them. In doing some research, I have found areas of Ontario that have huge flocks of these predators decimating lakes and rivers as they have voracious appetites. Their excrement is extremely toxic and has the ability to kill trees and vegetation that surround their nesting sites. They have "cleaned" out certain area lakes and rivers in Ontario and many in the East are concerned about their increasing numbers from which I have learned are multiplying at an alarming rate. Now that they are establishing their numbers in the West, it won't be long before their behaviour will be recognized as a huge detriment to our fish numbers. What can be done? Who has done research on these birds and their ability to impact the fish numbers out here in the West? Probably no one. They differ from the Pelican as they can swim extremely fast and have the ability to swim long distances underwater. The Pelican is larger, slower and accoring to Guides on the Missouri in Montana, usually are only able to catch whitefish as according to them, trout are faster and have better ability to escape predation than whitties.

Anybody have any more info you can add to this thread? I am only commenting on the research I have done and I am by no means an"expert". But, I do know first hand how they can "clean" out populations of stocked and wild fish.

FHD

 

I wish it was cormorants that ruin fishing. I studied cormorant stomach samples from Newell and it seems most fish in their guts were suckers and minnows. They were small but some studies showed them eating small pike and whitefish. They can't eat bigger fish...like a pelican. I even doubt that they can eat trout as big as 16 inches like loons can.

 

We have 3 loons and a few cormorants at Sundance. Given they can dive...and that perch tend to swim for about a foot before diving into the weeds...I am hoping that we get about 1000 cormorants feeding on perch soon. That would be great.

 

If you want to look to something harming fishing...look to the regulations. PAST ALBERTA HISTORY...When you keep the limits the same over the years but at the same time increase the number of anglers by 5000%...what happens? The fisheries collapse resulting in the government protecting them one species after another. Over the same time the fisheries were collapsing we only decreased the limits by 50%... so you should quickly see the lack of sustainability and the impact anglers have. Look to the old timers stories of the "good ole days" with tons of fish and plentiful big ones...then listen to them complain about the lack of fishing now...one only needs to look for the disconnect in their own pictures of there slaughtering of hundreds of fish at a time.

 

Plentiful fish led to greed...and scarse fish...leads to even greater greed. No one wants the other guy to kill "his fish".

 

Tiss truly a shame.

[Harps]

Rick, Sundance, and I pretty much agreeing in the same thread!?!

Wow

 

 

Mike, folks become muzzled as soon as they start working for the gov't.