Angling Guide Licensing Mtg

[Flytyer]

Mike S,

The issue with licensing, is why?

I can go ahead and apply and get a BC angling guide license as an Albertan. I have one as I own Fortress Lake Retreat. I can guide a ton of water in BC that isn't part of the Classified waters. I can apply for rod days on CW. BC cannot restrict me from this process, as a Canadian, though I may not get many rod days on CW. Nor can an Alberta licensing system preclude a BC resident, nor a US one for that matter. So, the question, if any of this is about bad feelings due to the Elk watershed CW, is a simple licensing system is going to do anything to limit cross border guides? No. A US guide can apply for a work permit, any Canadian is legally entitled to work anywhere in the country, and both could simply apply for and get a guide lic in Ab. On the US guide front, that's a federal immigration issue and can't be part of this process as it would be far out of a province's juridictional boundaries to comment on who can't work in Alberta. So that can't be a reason for licensing.

Where the BC system checked in to regulate things was the CW classification, which essentially locked in who could do what, where, within given watersheds. As everyone knows, we're light years from doing that here, but unless you do a system very much like that, there is no way to restrict who can guide anywhere in Alberta.

As you are on the email distribution list from Keith, there is a bit of a mixed message. One msg is that we're just looking at the process of licensing and keeping it simple. Then there's another email that brings up guide standards, etc, which only sets the table for something beyond basic licensing. A review board, proficiency tests, etc.

So, I come to the mtg tomorrow with the suspicion that this process is simply a way of trying to get a gov mandated guide association going, to introduce a lic system to set up 4 or 5 basic industry standards. Again, why? Where is documented proof that our industry is suffering due to bad guides or because we don't have logos and stickers? Where is the proof that shows because I have a sticker, insurance, cpr/fa, show up on an association website, have paid a $500 fee to the gov that I'll be that much better off for it? Don't tell me that because I'm licensed, have insurance, have a sticker on my boat... that I am now a professional guide. No, I'm licensed. That's it. I've already done all the other things, except give myself a sticker - does the mayfly on my minivan count? (speaking of guides with minivans). We've been in business a long time, have always had ins/cpr/fa, done an ok job most days, have a nice little website, always pay my taxes (a fed and prov issue anyway), am involved in many fisheries mgt realms, have my nice little business lic, etc. How is this process going to benefit me / others like me, or benefit the new start ups which already have equal opportunity? Worse, how is spending fisheries budget $ to get this done going to benefit the resource if everyone who legally applies for a guide license is going to get one anyway and guide wherever they want?

And no, I'm not p/o'd or mad, not at all. I just tend to analyze things to death in my head. There truly is very little to suggest this is going to do anything, but seems to be a good idea, though nobody really knows why we'd start this process outside of it being a good idea, but what does it accomplish? On goes the circle.

Cheers, see you tomorrow.

 

Dave

 

I disagree with you when it comes to the American issue and the immigration part being left out. The onus should be on the American guide to provide proof of that work permit at the time of application for a guides license in AB. This should be seriously considered in the process as it will help curtail illegal activities by non residents( from out of country).

 

Just some extra food for thought.

[rehsifylf]

Where is documented proof that our industry is suffering due to bad guides or because we don't have logos and stickers? Where is the proof that shows because I have a sticker, insurance, cpr/fa, show up on an association website, have paid a $500 fee to the gov that I'll be that much better off for it? Don't tell me that because I'm licensed, have insurance, have a sticker on my boat... that I am now a professional guide. No, I'm licensed.

 

We've been in business a long time, have always had ins/cpr/fa, done an ok job most days, have a nice little website, always pay my taxes (a fed and prov issue anyway), am involved in many fisheries mgt realms, have my nice little business lic, etc.

 

Excellent. Show that we have a problem first, then consider solutions.

 

I expect Dave has the quals because a)it makes his business more attractive to clients, and b)he understands that the liability exists to him if he does not. Thats called smart business.

[DaveJensen]

FT - appreciate what you are saying and agree totally if that is how it is set up. The flipside? Where is the proof that this is an issue? Where are the tracking #s, who's done them, who will do them, etc? Where is the proof that it's a detriment to our industry? Again, with all things, do we base this on he said, she said, and he must be credible? Or do we actually get tracking of this? If 10 guides see a US boat on the water, is that 10 illegal guides or is that just 10 reports of the same boat? Where's the tracking system? To jump to licensing guides before we document what the issues are and prove they are in fact issues, is dicey. Ask Mike Holmes what happens when you build houses on shaky foundations.

reh - and everyone - nothing we do is any different from what anyone else can already do, if not better and more successfully - or the opposite.

 

Anyway, I've had enough air time - sorry! Off to a little spring creek to watch the fish. If Mike doesn't do the feedback from the mtg Sat, I'll come back next week.

[Flytyer]

FT - appreciate what you are saying and agree totally if that is how it is set up. The flipside? Where is the proof that this is an issue? Where are the tracking #s, who's done them, who will do them, etc? Where is the proof that it's a detriment to our industry? Again, with all things, do we base this on he said, she said, and he must be credible? Or do we actually get tracking of this? If 10 guides see a US boat on the water, is that 10 illegal guides or is that just 10 reports of the same boat? Where's the tracking system? To jump to licensing guides before we document what the issues are and prove they are in fact issues, is dicey. Ask Mike Holmes what happens when you build houses on shaky foundations.

reh - and everyone - nothing we do is any different from what anyone else can already do, if not better and more successfully - or the opposite.

 

Anyway, I've had enough air time - sorry! Off to a little spring creek to watch the fish. If Mike doesn't do the feedback from the mtg Sat, I'll come back next week.

 

I don't have the answers but in my opinion what I said can be a preventative measure in the case of a problem......call it looking ahead to what could be potential problems down the road if it isn't a problem. I agree with that we don't have the numbers and stuff like that but it's just something to keep in mind for consideration.

 

[DaveJensen]

Ok, I lied, I'm leaving after I type this:

FT - agree with you again, all points. Consider though, the US work permit issue will be as difficult to deal with, regardless of lic guides or not. Who does the checks, who gets the border crossing guard to care about a few ff guides (in the greater scheme)? Who gets the immigration officers out of the office to the take out? How does the officer prove anyone is guiding? And if there are only a dozen complaints a year called in to any gov offices, how do they justify it as a focal point, esp if only 1 or 2 are ultimately fined? Tough stuff.

 

Is this enough justification for licensing guides across Alberta?

 

I'm not disagreeing with lic, just pointing out there are too many loose ends that have no answers, for as open ended as an issue as immigration is, most issues wrapped in guide lic follow suit. Do we jump into licensing just because it seems like a good idea but we can't quantify, much less qualify, why?

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Ok, I lied, I'm leaving after I type this:

FT - agree with you again, all points. Consider though, the US work permit issue will be as difficult to deal with, regardless of lic guides or not. Who does the checks, who gets the border crossing guard to care about a few ff guides (in the greater scheme)? Who gets the immigration officers out of the office to the take out? How does the officer prove anyone is guiding? And if there are only a dozen complaints a year called in to any gov offices, how do they justify it as a focal point, esp if only 1 or 2 are ultimately fined? Tough stuff.

 

Is this enough justification for licensing guides across Alberta?

 

I'm not disagreeing with lic, just pointing out there are too many loose ends that have no answers, for as open ended as an issue as immigration is, most issues wrapped in guide lic follow suit. Do we jump into licensing just because it seems like a good idea but we can't quantify, much less qualify, why?

 

Can I make a request.

 

Can someone summarize on a numbered point form what the pros and the cons are for this?

 

If would then be interesting to post a poll to see which of them concern people the most. Then maybe better direct the discussions to a meaningly outcome or summary.

 

Rather than go straight to blowing one point potentially way out of proportion...maybe seeing it all in context first may be enlightening...

 

Just a thought.

[Heimdallr]

In principle I agree with the idea that we should have all the numbers, facts, and figures before making any decision. The problem with that is so much time and money is spent in collecting all the required data and organizing it and drawing conclusion. It is no doubt a step that cannot be ignored, but as with anything it becomes expensive and frustrating so I can see why some might want to just skip the facts and run with what seems to be happening. Unfortunately, no system is perfect, but it sure would be nice to see quick and effective results sometimes.

[Smitty]

Sun:

 

Working on that very thing.

 

Mike

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Sun:

 

Working on that very thing.

 

Mike

 

Great!

[Gary]

Hey Dave, Do you have any background info on this meeting?

Are you going to the meeting?

Who is attending the meeting? Is it just fishing guides or is there some gov't reps?

Is this a group starting to oppose licensing restrictions?

Background: The issue of guide licensing was brought to the Provincial Round Table in our fall session last year by Keith Rae. There did not seem to be much desire to deal with the issue by both the participants and fisheries people. The issue came close to dying during our spring sitting until I urged the members to at least come to grips with the issue by setting some direction. The group agreed to establish a sub committee to investigate the matter and bring back recommendations to the round table. A number of individuals agreed to sit on the committee and our first get together was a conference call back in May to establish how we would proceed. The following is the outcome of that conference call.

 

1. Fisheries Management Branch agreed to:

a. Assemble and circulate Department of Transport information pertaining to the regulatory requirements for the operation of boats hired for charter

b. Acquire and circulate information of Government of Alberta requirements for licensing businesses

c. Acquire and circulate information of Tourism Parks and Recreation licence requirements for running a commercial enterprise within areas under the management authority of TPR

d. Retain the services of a facilitator to run a one day workshop in early September to frame out a discussion document for the October Alberta Fisheries Management Round Table.

e. Compile a list of guides and/or businesses with an interest in the subject of Licensing of Recreational Fish Guides for the purposes of including them in discussions and workshop invite.

 

2. Task Group members requested to:

a. Compilation of interested guides / businesses

 

3. Next Steps

a. FMB will make arrangements to retain a facilitator

b. Task Group members can expect to be contacted in advance for input into workshop material.

c. Likely date for workshop is September 12th – Edmonton

 

Now life being what it is with everyone dealing with what they have to and the goverment apparently moving away from their committment to the Provincial Round Table much of the above didn't happen. Fortunately Keith has a passion for the issue and with help, I believe, from the northern Walleye trail people has pushed the issue forward by setting up the meeting being talked about here. Below is the agenda for this meeting.

 

1:00 a.m.

1. Introductions - Opening Remarks – Keith Rae – Ken Crutchfield

2. Participant Feedback on Expectations for Meeting Outcomes

3. Review and prioritization of Issues

4. Sequential discussion of issues (intent is to conclude an outcome which sets out direction )

5. Closing remarks

PROPOSED Process for Review and prioritization of recreational fishing guide licensing issues:

1. Participants will be provided a handout of issues compiled feedback with various recreational sport fish guides and stakeholders.

2. Participants to review, expand, modify the list under agenda item #3

3. Participants will separate items into 3 categories. Those categories are:

• To be addressed by fish managers

• To be addressed by task group composed of recreational fishing guides and fish managers

• To be addressed exclusively by a task group composed of recreational fishing guides.

4. Items will be prioritized within each category by participants who will then determine the order of items to be discussed.

5. Notes will be compiled of direction / action arising from discussion. Notes will be distributed to all the invited participants

 

Everyone here should be able to see now that this is the very beginning of the process. Should this move forward you can expect to see more people in the industry and other stakeholders participating in the proceess.

There will be government representation at this meeting. I am going but I am unsure as to how many others will be in attendance. In my understanding this is a group looking to be successful in convincing fisheries that fishing guides in Alberta should be licensed. One minor problem I see so far is the optimism shown in the agenda that fishing guides will all be on side with this. Just as oil companies should not be the group that decides what royalties they will pay the province, guides alone should not be deciding on whether or not they are licensed or regulated.

 

As far as my opinion on whether guides should be licensed. Absolutely.

[canadagrey]

Results of the Guide Licensing Meeting:

To establish any sort of licensing will require a need for public demand, politcal will and guide desire.

At present the only part of these requirements is the belief by some of the guides that a minimum standard should be required if any licensing is to be initiated. The guides and outfitters in attendance agreed to further converse with the balance of the Guiding Fraternity to 1)develop reasons for licensing 2) establish a minimum standard. That group will have approximately 1 year to prepare a proposal for the Round Table.

SORRY STILL

[dutchie]

yippe yippe

good as that was just a waste and a joke , i can already see the min standard test , what's a pickeral rig and caddis fly , another big waste of time for everyone

 

 

i have been following this and most likely like alot of people just staying back on the side lines and see what will become of all this , opinions , everyone has one , '' right or wrong'' it's just opinions ,

 

my 2 cents worth and again this is just my opinion ,

 

i will have to agree 100% with dave jensen on this , i also see the bigger picture behind the books cover , this will cost EVERYONE in some way or form and for what good reason ,nothing the goverment ever gets into don't cost money LOL ,

 

i think a whole waste of money will be spent for what good , and let alone the waste of time that could be used to better help what we all in truth really care about is the fish and will the fishing remain good , and it don't matter if it's us trout guys or the walleye guys up north or the lake trout guys in cold lake area , we all just care about the fishing

 

i really wish that when greg '' toolman'' and al , had the spring fund raiseing for the streamwatch program it would of got as much interrest as this subject , and to me it was a heck of alot more important then crying about why so many guides and them bad ass guys fishing over here from B.C , or being pissed at what they B.C did , or someone should have first aid , or even worse $20 bucks a day to fish one of the best cutt rivers in the world , come on ,

 

streamwatch 2009 , it was shamefull that they only got enough money for 3 guys to watch all the rivers , 1 in the south and 2 up north , the way to keep the fish and keep it good fishing is with solid inforcement ,and tougher fines , plus have enough CO"S walking the rivers ,

 

on this subject should guides be lic , i am for it and i'm more against it , my reasons

as per anything the goverment will just screw it all up ,whats more is it will hurt the new guy who ever wants to get into it down the road , just look what happen to the outfitting world , same will happen to the fishing guides and locations , they will push to have the right to be the only ones on the lakes guideing or so many only on the rivers , then it will go to you can sell your rights to anyone , happening now in alot of places down in the states ,

 

can later on in a few years , a up coming new young guy ever afford to buy out another guides days on the river or the right to fish another lake , how about coming up with the money to buy the rod days in advance for the year , sounds all good till you have to pay money out of your pocket

 

oh don't get me wrong i see the picture behind this , as a guide you would have to be nuts or crazy not to go along with this , the bigger outfits would push the smaller guy out

 

but it will give us guides as a group alot of power with the vote and the ones who do it on the side and not full time will be knocked out ,

 

and so for that reason i'm against it , guides or lodges or outfitters will have way to much power

i still like the ideal that it's a free world and people can make there own choices on what they want to do and how they want to do it ,

 

and make no mistake about it , if the cost goes up then the cost will go up for everyone , even you people who are not guideing , the goverment will want the money for all the extra cost and that won't even make them happy and they will even soak us all for more , nothing ever gets lowered once it's passed

 

i read this and alot of people upset about guides and B.C fee's and so on , seems everyone upset about something

 

the guides are not the ones killing fish , not the ones running quads,up and down the oldman river , if your a guide you want to protect the fishing as best you can so it's better the next time or day , always next year , now i'm not saying that there is not the odd bad apple , but this would not change anything , still will be the odd bad apple out on the waters

 

from reading alot of post on here it seems some think that every tom , dick and harry that floats down the river in a drift boat is a guide , who really cares , some just hate the thought of someone guideing , i guess you can say the same about me as i don't much like lawyers , yet i don't try to tell them what to do and how to do it , i think alot is just plain ol bitterness

 

first aid , wippy do , if you do go on a guided trip , why just ask first if he has first aid , if not say thanks and look up another guide in the book seeing as there seems to be just so many of us guides around , and yes i have first aid , 20 years worth of it , and to this day i still never needed it ,

 

insurance , again it's ones own choice , ask the guy and if he don't have it , just say thanks and look up another guide if you really want it so bad , just in case it happens that you should slip or the guide steps on your rod and breaks it

insurance is a joke , just another way for them to make more money , a person can just as easy have a waiver sheet , it's only as good as the paper it's printed on , cost about $1000 to $2500 extra a year , this i know as i have had insurance , is it really really needed ??

again that is one's own choice

 

i really don't think it's fair that you tell someone how to run his outfit and what he should have and what he shouldn't have , you go into a fly shop and tell them what they should have , NO , if ya don't like the outfit , go with another

again just bitchin

 

 

 

$20 for fee's in B.C , heck i wish they would charge $20 for alot of the rivers we have and the lakes in alberta , easy easy fix , pick out say the best rivers in alberta and some of the best lakes and charge anyone not from alberta $20 bucks , the money can be used to put more CO's on the waters to inforce the rules,

 

so add the best rivers and lakes at $20 a day for all none residents , to raise money to help stop poaching which i think is the biggest trouble overall

rivers '' bow river'' , ''oldman river'' ''crownest'' even add a few more

lakes , ask the walleye guys for the best ones to be added

 

guys guideing from B.C or from anywhere outside alberta , you can be sure that will end if this all happens as the powers will be voteing to shut them out or they will have to pay to guide over in alberta , and the goverment will make them pay if they see $ figures in it for them

 

again this all is a very easy fix , in the new regs for 2010 , on say page 4 , have the powers that decide the rules , , to have the printers add the following and this will cost next to nothing

 

1, to guide in alberta for money or gain , one must be a full time resident of alberta , and have paid alberta taxes for the last 2 years ,

 

2, all none '''canadian residents'''' must use a guide to fish in alberta , '' now this will really stop the pressure of the fishing over night '' and it sure will help us guides out with more bookings ,

 

will these changes happen ,NO , so for that i'm against it ,

so lets all get togeather and raise a pile of money this year in the 2010 streamwatch and have the rivers and lakes watched and nail them poachers to the wall

[Wolfie]

there really is a lot to think about before we..you, me and everyone else goes half cock with this idea..I was talking to a friend of mine from out East today and he told me his brother who is a guide out in the Gaspe' region was charging $1250.00 per day to fish for Atlantic Salmon, but the Killer was those who owned pools on the river was charging $1750.00 per day in American to fish for Atlantic Salmon..........the point of this is to remind everyone do we want to pay for a sport that we love so greatly and that has NOT been overly exploited as of yet.................think about..England, Scotland, Ireland, Germany, and so on and so on...to fish for free is a God send..or would you like to pay?......

 

..I concur..make this government put the money back into the sport..fisheries and protection....First!.............Wolfie

[Smitty]

Well, I attended to on Saturday and I did make notes, and I'll prepare them at some point. Right now I have a little bit more pressing things on my radar, like a career switch.

 

But BRB and Dutchie hit a lot of the main points, essentially it boils down to the following:

 

1) Needs to be some level of concrete support by the angling public and the guiding industry before the gov't is gonna get hot and bothered.

2) From an angling standpoint, there are principles to stand on and support, but they are in direct tension with enforcement and $ issues being diverted by much more pressing issues.

3) It was left that the guides themselves will have to spearhead an initiative to figure out legitimate reasons to move forward on this issue from their perspective, and whether that would include the preliminary step/idea of having a voluntary professional associations that will set minimum standards that business's can associate themselves with. Sorta/kinda like BBB for guides, and those wishing to add credibility to their business from a safety and liability standpoint can voluntarily do so. Also, a time-line of one year was introduced for this idea.

 

It was a real eye-opener for me; clearly and obviously this nowhere as cut and dry as, say, when Barry Mitchell wrote his letter 12 years ago imploring something be done about the Eastern Slopes before entire watersheds collapsed.

 

Right now, personally, I am in favor of guides pursuing option #3 in terms of their own voluntary professional association. I'd like to say I come right out and support licensing, but the practical reality is that implementing unsupported regulatory frameworks may divert time, energy, effort, and dollars in something, that frankly is not a huge issue. I see more people here complaining about random camping, and general enforcement of existing sportfishing regulations.

 

At some point when I collect my notes together, I'll post a note and leave my email and send a word doc to anyone interested.

 

Mike "Smitty" Smith

[genn]

not sure what you are after but this is what we use in the rafting biz. http://www.raftingalberta.ca/ all it will take is a death or two and the man will jump in. just a thought

[canadagrey]

Dutchie: I agree with a lot that you say however I feel you have to stay on topic. CO's and Streamwatch are not part of this topic. But it does open a new contraversial topic. Why is the public paying for or solicting partners for Streamwatch? Why isn't enforcement covered by SRD or the Attorney General or whatever department by the govt? Don't get me wrong I support Streamwatch, I want to know why we should pay for law enforcement, wouldn't our money be better spent on conservation and rehabilitation? I will now start a new thread for this topic in order to keep topics in line.

[dutchie]

BRB

Why is the public paying for or solicting partners for Streamwatch?

 

simple , the goverment is not going to spend more money and hire more co's , and even more so now with the budget and hard times , it just won't happen ,

 

so the big picture is that it's left to us to try to raise funds to hire '' some people to do the watching and protect the fish'' as a example in the last 3 years on the bow i have not been stopped while floating , once i seen one at the parking lot , what we need is to have people , everyone calling in everything and get some fish cops walking the banks , give no breaks whats so ever ,

 

and i really think everyone should have a quick read of this post , if after reading this and you still don't see what just can happen to the sport we all love , if you let this so called guides lic or outfitters have the power , and thats just the first step ,

 

they have it in B.C now and soon they will call all the shots , and it won't matter that your from canada at all , i'm telling you folks that this is bad for everyone and i'm a guide , it's all about the money and not the fish ,

here is a really good post and lots of people are now starting to see the truth , http://speypages.com/speyclave/showthread.php?t=30954

 

[Harps]

Thanks for the update Gary, and thank you Mike for letting us know what came out of it.

 

I still think licensing guides would be an excellent idea.

 

This is Alberta... our government is not going to enforce rod days on rivers as that would restrict enterprise.

Albeta is alot different than BC and Montana, yes, but I think both have a better fisheries managment system.

I disagree with the Skeena plan, but I think the CW system has alot of merit, it just needs to be tweaked.

 

And Dutchie,

I also will strongly fight if folks think that everybody from out of province would require a guide. That is bullcrap and only a money making scheme that will only benefit the unlicensed guides who will put none of that back into the resource.

 

I would suggest that if any angler on this board feels strongly about the issue... well they should send a message to the ministers (Tourism, SRD, and Employment).

 

And we do have alot of issues to address, OHV use, poaching, industry/agriculture, etc. But numbers from guiding will at the very least, provide the government a rough value of the commercial side of recreational fishing in Alberta... a value that is missing from all considerations.

 

How much is your river worth to you?

[Harps]

Hey Smitty,

 

Did you ever come up with a summary of the issue?

I've had a number of people complain to me about guides down south here (I think cause other areas were blown out). There were also a ton of BC plated vehicles with groups fishing near by...

[tieflyer]

The bottom line on this never ending subject is the quest to LIMIT guides and outfitter numbers and then limit river access in as many way's possible so that guides and outfitters profiteer, have first access to all waters and everybody else foots the bill (license for this, license for that, more justification for "private landowners" building right up to the rivers edge and claiming, "property rights", over high water rights). so that Alberta finally becomes much like B.C., thanks to the guides and outfitters.

I'm all for limiting guides. Hell I'm all for limiting boats. But, to have government pay for it eventually means guiding and outfitting become part of the welfare state that guides and outfitters like to disparage and whine about as they puff up, boasting about last frontier, "real men", baloney, and divine more reasons to make water inaccessible without a professional guide.

If you want to make it work don't do this for selfish reasons; put the rivers and Alberta first and foremost...and keep retailers and other obscure entities ("outfitters", quasi middlemen sucking more blood) the heck out of it.

[Smitty]

Harps:

 

Didn't get around to doing it. I'll try and find sometime this August though.

 

Smitty

[Harps]

Thanks Mike!

No rush or real importance (I'm out of Canada till September anyways).