New Company Policies

[fishpro]

Just wondering if anyone has heard of the new policies being put in place by various companies. I read on a site that starting October 1st, retailers will not be able to sell products (such as Sage and others) below MSRP. This was mentioned as part of advertising for a sale, so perhaps they just used it as a reason to move gear, or there may be truth to it. Has anyone heard about this?

[headscan]

I think that would violate some competition laws.

[jack]

That has been a "Sage Law" for sometime. Cut prices without the Sage OK, and shops can loose their ever-so-treasured Sage dealership. Goes right along with " You aren't a credible fly shop if you don't carry Sage". "As a Sage dealer, you have to carry the full line." And to the consumer: "You haven't reached your full potential unless you have a Sage."

It's all about ruthless market control. Prepared by years of propaganda(OK, elitist advertising, then) and now with a weakened economy and competition being somewhat vulnerable, as well as shops being stuck with full inventories, Sage now can apply the pressure to squeeze out the brand variety in shops. They have driven TFO almost completely out of the Wet Coast. One previously successful shop that I know of, fell for the "all Sage" gambit and is now very close to going down the drain. Just doesn't have the variety to supply a wide range of customers, anymore.

j

[Jayhad]

They have driven TFO almost completely out of the Wet Coast.

that's a pretty bold statement, you don't give the end consumer much faith do you?

Not many guys go into a fly shop saying, I wish i could buy a TFO but I just can't make it through all this Sage propaganda oh well i guess I have to buy a Z-axis.

If another brand was to be carried I think TFO would suit the bill because there isn't near teh amount of money tied up in carrying the stock.

[Golfman09]

My assumption from what Jack was saying is that Sage is requiring the full line to be carried by the small shops which is a lot of money sunk into just one line of rods. Depending on what that particular shop is "open to buy" each year it may substantially hinder the other options for them to stock. A difficult choice to make when Sage is as well know as it is......some will only want Sage....others maybe not. I guess Sage feels like they have enough power in the market that they can play hardball with even the small shops.

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

I have been in sales for a long time now and i got to say that TFO and sage are advertising to different people. I have 2 tfo my collection and if i can i fish SAGE or LOOP because they cast and handle MUCH better......this is not to say that i never like my TFO! Those rods have pulled in well over 500/rod, i just moved up in my casting ability and dont prefer to use them any more.

 

If a company is shoved out of a market it is because they are not pushing in the advertising field or because their product is truly inferior and is pushed out by quality.

 

just my 2c

[jack]

that's a pretty bold statement, you don't give the end consumer much faith do you?

Not many guys go into a fly shop saying, I wish i could buy a TFO but I just can't make it through all this Sage propaganda oh well i guess I have to buy a Z-axis.

If another brand was to be carried I think TFO would suit the bill because there isn't near teh amount of money tied up in carrying the stock.

 

A bold statement? It's called truth. In spite of the list of "TFO" dealers, try and actually buy one one in the BC Lower Rainland.

We can all dream up unlikely scenarios to defend our agendas, but the reality is that the environment is primed for pressure marketing.

 

" I guess Sage feels like they have enough power in the market that they can play hardball with even the small shops." Precisely. And who wouldn't, if the situation was reversed?

I'm not bashing Sage, just telling it like it really is. With the acquisition of Redington and Reo, they have broadened their product lines to encompass almost every niche possible. Even selling through big boxes, which only a few years ago was "something we will never do". Remember "Only qualified shops can carry Sage." ?? There is no such thing as "exclusivity" or loyalty anymore. But they do have one hell of an advertising budget/campaign.

 

"If a company is shoved out of a market it is because they are not pushing in the advertising field or because their product is truly inferior and is pushed out by quality."

Or it's a closed market.

 

j

 

[BBBrownie]

Although I own a couple of Sage rods (and love em), I don't feel in any way limited to Sage, or pressured to buy Sage. There are many shops I would argue are quite viable which don't carry Sage, and I'm sure really don't suffer for it. Perhaps the Sage machine is the big boy these days, so call the non-sage shops niche markets if you want, they all still seem busy to me. If consumers don't want Sage, then the machine will shift, and Sage will fall out of vogue. If they keep supplying superior quality product with a righteous warranty, then I will keep buying em, why wouldn't I? I think it is as simple as supply and demand. If the model keeps building steam, it will keep rolling over competitors and converting the anglers, if the model breaks, there will be a shift in the market and another brand will begin building the steam that Sage lost. As often as I see Sage(including the lower mainland)I also see Loop and I see G Loomis, perhaps to an equal extent. That seems like a decent variety to me?

[headscan]

But they do have one hell of an advertising budget/campaign.

Advertising and marketing help get the name out there, but there are plenty of examples of massive marketing campaigns that still failed to move any product. I think the consumer's intelligence and desire for a good product is frequently underestimated (just ask GM and Chrysler). Bob Meiser spends little on advertising, yet he seems to sell lots of rods purely by reputation and word of mouth. I think there are also very few shops that sell his rods. Now granted he doesn't have the capacity to build and sell tons of rods to stock the shops, but it shows that if people really want a certain product they will go out of their way to get it, especially in the online age.

 

Predatory and anti-competitive practices are something entirely different. If you feel that's happening, then contact your attorney general's office to find out how to file a complaint.

 

[Bandi]

I have 2 tfo my collection and if i can i fish SAGE or LOOP because they cast and handle MUCH better......this is not to say that i never like my TFO! Those rods have pulled in well over 500/rod, i just moved up in my casting ability and dont prefer to use them any more.

 

_Off topic_

 

I own both Sage's and Vision's intro rods, and Sage is nowhere close to Vision. ) Sage launch is heavier and inferior in casting...

You are right, Loop is completely different category.

My two cents...

 

_On topic_

[bhurt]

What shop here in town doesn't have TFO, the only one that I can think of is South Bow, but I could be wrong.

 

I see both TFO and Sage in almost 90% of calgary stores, with a wide veraiety of other manufatures.

 

I also know alot of people that will not buy a sage and vise a versa.

 

I do not think Sage is pushing everyone out or brain washing everyone, do you really think WE ARE ALL THAT STUPID.

[headscan]

What shop here in town doesn't have TFO, the only one that I can think of is South Bow, but I could be wrong.

West Winds stopped carrying TFO. Gord still has a few old ones left on the rack but he isn't bringing them in any more. He only carries Sage and T&T I think, but not full lines of either brand.

 

Country Pleasures has never carried TFO either.

[KnotLikely]

Just wondering if anyone has heard of the new policies being put in place by various companies. I read on a site that starting October 1st, retailers will not be able to sell products (such as Sage and others) below MSRP. This was mentioned as part of advertising for a sale, so perhaps they just used it as a reason to move gear, or there may be truth to it. Has anyone heard about this?

 

This isn't unique to Sage or new to Sage, many brands, Orvis, Sony, Nintendo, Apple do the same thing. It puts all of their resellers on a level playing field by not allowing a larger store to sell products for a lower margin knowing they can make it up in volume or related purchases. These policies in particular protect the smaller stores who wouldn't be able to compete with the volumes of a Bass Pro or Cabella's.

 

It's my understanding that this has been Sage's policy for years. I was under the impression that all resellers are not to sell their products for less than MSRP unless there is a line that is discontinued, or for special occasions like a shops grand opening or anniversary...perhaps Sage is getting stricter in enforcing their policy.

 

Check out the prices on any current stock of Sage, Hardy, Orvis, Simms, Patagonia products across Canada, and you'll see that the regular price on these items is almost identical

 

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

if i had my own shop and one type of rod was constantly selling well with a good profit margin vs. another one that had less profit in it i would drop the skunk and start looking around to change what ever was in its shelf spot. This is a recesion, stores want to maxemize their floore space to what sells in pays the bills...if its $150/sq foot on rental space i would want to turn 300+ on every sq foot i had (in a perfect world)

[jack]

"Predatory and anti-competitive practices are something entirely different. If you feel that's happening, then contact your attorney general's office to find out how to file a complaint."

 

There are no laws preventing aggressive marketing, none preventing one company from setting their own price. None preventing the arm-twisting and manipulation to place a dealer in a position of dependency. Oil companies do it all the time. It's when they conspire among themselves to set prices that it becomes illegal.

j

[jayjjones11]

Jack,

I find it odd that you disable your signature for this thread. Don't want people to associate you slamming another rod company, while working for another?

Wierd

[bhurt]

Jack,

I find it odd that you disable your signature for this thread. Don't want people to associate you slamming another rod company, while working for another?

Wierd

 

 

[Wolfie]

Jack,

I find it odd that you disable your signature for this thread. Don't want people to associate you slamming another rod company, while working for another?

Wierd

 

my, my...such a petty childish statement not even pertaining to the content of this thread..and who is 'slamming' a rod company..boy u should read before revealing your dislike about someone..in either as a joke or a personal shot..

 

..and it is to my understanding that this.."MSRP", crap, has been going on when most of you were in diapers, and that was because some American company took some poor slob in a law suite...thus they started their Rep...and yes ..Sage has and will use all of their power to limit the number of little stores that do not use their inferior American product as long as they can and will suck in so many of other countries in believing that their products are ..superior..and a prime example is in here , the number of ppl who believe that to own a Sage products gives them the right to spout off about other higher quality products...I've said this over 30 years ago..and will continue to say it till whenever..this rod manufacture will never be the all important one in the world of Fishing Products, for there are many higher quality rods built yesterday as it is today that will not allow that to happen......of course this is my opinion, which I personally am stead fast with.............Wolfie

 

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Does not this age of the internet eliminate the need for this argument/discussion on the board? Not to end what is an interesting topic in theory but people can buy anything they want on the internet regardless of what a store nearby stocks.

 

Advertising is now the true key definer of a product insofar as mass sales and then quality of product versus price (ie. value for the might buck) should rein supreme in future decisions.

 

I must also say that while as in golf if you are a crappy golfer...$2000 clubs versus $40 garage sale clubs might look prettier...they probably won't improve your game. Likewise an average caster will not see a marked improvement on their casting ability with a SAGE compared to a TFO. An expert caster can probably cast just as well with either rod.

 

With mass produced, high quality blanks being used by many manufacturers these days, the leg up on technology to SAGE et. al. has fallen by the way side.

 

Now these companies need to advertise harder to "convince" consumers that there is value for the money in paying 3 or 4 times as much for one rod over another.

 

I personally also have both and really...other than the past prestige of owning an "elite" rod...I could use either.

 

MTC IMHO

[headscan]

"As a Sage dealer, you have to carry the full line."

Asked a fly shop owner about this today and there is zero truth to it. They would like shops to carry the full line (which company wouldn't?) but don't require them to.

 

Does not this age of the internet eliminate the need for this argument/discussion on the board? Not to end what is an interesting topic in theory but people can buy anything they want on the internet regardless of what a store nearby stocks.

Bingo! Even without the internet though, I think just about every major rod manufacturer and lots of the smaller ones can be found in retail stores in Calgary. Amundson, Beulah, Echo, Guideline, Grey's, Loomis, Loop, Orvis, Redington, Sage, Scott, Snowbee, TFO, Thomas & Thomas, Winston. If Sage is keeping other rod companies out of fly shops they aren't doing a very good job of it.

[jack]

...................I see both TFO and Sage in almost 90% of calgary stores, with a wide veraiety of other manufatures.

 

....................I do not think Sage is pushing everyone out or brain washing everyone, do you really think WE ARE ALL THAT STUPID.

 

Just to repeat myself and make it absolutely clear: "They have driven TFO almost completely out of the Wet Coast".

 

My statement was based on first-hand knowledge of the BC market. No where else.

j

[headscan]

Just to repeat myself and make it absolutely clear: "They have driven TFO almost completely out of the Wet Coast".

 

My statement was based on first-hand knowledge of the BC market. No where else.

j

A single market is not a statistically valid sample to make the sweeping statements about Sage's marketing practices that you did though.

[jack]

A single market is not a statistically valid sample to make the sweeping statements about Sage's marketing practices that you did though.

 

It is "statistically valid" in THAT market. It may not be "valid" where the marketing is not quite as intense or the area has a viable, cost effective, alternative for at least part of that market. Just as one example does not indicate "policy", another example may not be an example of a non-policy, but may be an indication that a policy just isn't working as well as it is somewhere else.

j

 

[fishnut1]

Jack,

 

All shops carry a product that will bring in sales.

It is up to the individual shop owner to choose what they want to carry and not a manufacturing company.

If a product line is replaced, it could be for many different reasons.

 

 

[jack]

"I have sat back while you take your shots at Sage and advertise your product line on the chat sites."

 

Never "took shots" at, or have ever discredited the product, Rubin. Please objectively review your perception. But, like it or not, policies and procedures, marketing, et al, are not "above" criticism, no matter how strong the urge is to protect the image.

 

And(just to clarify), I have paid for the advertising banner and "Sponsor's Events/Announcements" on this and one other website because I felt that both of them provide valuable information to fly fishers and that is a good thing to materially support.

j