yak
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Posts posted by yak
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Actually the problem for the original poster and anyone else who thinks the price of a walk and wade guided trip for one person is excessive is ... I have a choice ... take one guy on a walk and wade for $300 or $350 or whatever ... or ... one or two guys on a float for $500. Essentially, for those guides who have a full schedule, it's $300 for a day of work or $500. I don't care if the trip is for one or two guys, a float or a walk and wade ... the price is $500. I'm not going to book a one person walk and wader for anything less because I have a full slate of bookings and don't have to sell my services for less to fill empty days ... I don't have any. If you want to book my services for a day of fishing at my going rate, great! If you don't want to book my services for a day of fishing at my going rate, that's fine too because I'll be booked with someone else. There's no waiting around hoping someone will book a trip with me. Most of the time it's a juggling act fitting everyone in.
wow booked solid for an entire season. Im guessing that is about 100-130 days on the water (6 month season on the bow)at about $500 a pop. you estimated that for each day trip that the angler pony up $30 for flies,$50 to cover your taxes/business expenses, $25 for your lunch,and another $100 for all the equipment you have had to buy(whether he uses it or not). thats $205 over 100-130 days for a total of $21,000-$26500(that is in a single season) for all the "expenses" you listed.
This is your estimate for just a single year so I assume you need to replace all your rods and boat every year. If you dont need to replace $25,000 worth of equipment a year that hourly rate you came up with sure goes up.
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I just had some buddies from Ireland out fishing the bow for a week; they both thought the prices of drift boats were crazy. THey stated on thier waters in Ireland a top notch ghillie is 180 Euros. So perhaps it is just a difference in perceptions. I told them $500 wasn't out of the ordinary and actually standard. They did a drift and caught tonnes of fish and when they got back they felt it was worth the price.
It must be tough for a outsider to see the value in such an expense, with out knowing much about our fishing.
But if you think $500 is expensive never go fish off-shore in the south pacific.
$500 for 2 guys to float the bow vs $500 for one guy to walk and wade. that in a nutshell is the problem. totally different level of service yet the same price tag?
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I think he was implying that those are some of the overhead expenses a guide has to worry about when deciding what to charge. If you take a taxi part of the overhead included in the price of your fare is probably for windshield washer fluid even if the driver doesn't clean the windshield while you're in it.
If you think $500 is too much, then simply don't pay it. Why am I getting deja vu here? Oh, now I remember.
I understand that but the last cab i took didnt require me to by lunch for the driver and pay for the set of winter tires he had in storage.
my point is that for a simple walk and wade in the city where i supply my own gear,flies and sandwiches/water, a price tag of $500 is way too much. trying to justify the price by listing expenses the original poster likley wasnt interested in is irrelevant.
about 4 years ago,I spent $150 for a walk and wade(was a spring special) with a very well known guide on this site. i got myself to and from our meeting point and supplied my own gear and lunch. He supplied his time/expertise and a about 10 flies (real high end wire worms lol). we spent about 6 hours on the water ( that was enough for me) and taught me more in that day than I would have learned on my own in 5 years. this was well worth the money. had he insisted on charging what others deem to be the "necessary" amount of $500 it wouldnt have happened ( even with the champagne and caviar lunch). perhaps guides need to offer more options with regards to what is supplied and what isnt in order to make the prices a little more pallatable.
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$500 is too expensive? Let's break this down ...
Right off the top you can figure about $50 for transportation as your guide is going to be travelling at least 100 km just getting you to your fishing spot and back (going rate I believe is $0.51/km).
Then you can whack off another $30 for the flies you're going to lose assuming you only lose or ruin 15 flies during your day of fishing. Not to mention the few thousand dollars worth of flies he will have in his fly boxes so he can match the hatch or the fish menu of the day and the extras just in case you lose or ruin more than 15.
Then you can whack off another $50 for the lunch your guide is going to supply ... yes $50 ... the guide has to eat too ... and he'll likely be supplying drinks and snacks throughout the day.
Then you have to prorate the thousands of dollars worth of fly rods, fly lines, leaders, tippets, strike indicators, drift boats, and other pieces of equipment the guide has to have at his disposal so that if the cheapo client arrives with a 3 wt rod to fish the Bow River, the guide has equipment appropriate for the river that the client can use. Let's conservatively say $100 for that.
Then we have to consider the multitude of trips the guide spent on the river without a client learning the runs, buckets and holes, the river and trout, the effective methods of fishing and the flies of choice for any given week or month on the river ... only to be compensated when someone books him to take them on a trip. What's that worth? Let's be really conservative and say $100.
How am I doing so far Max?
Then you have to consider the cost of operating a business, bookkeeping, the Tax Man, keeping a website up, covering the cost of credit card payments, advertising, promotional activities, sponsorships. Let's again be conservative and peg that at $50.
So now your guide is going to be taking you for a fishing trip on the world famous Bow River for somewhere in the neighborhood of $220, spend 2 hours preparing for you, 10 hours on the river with you and 2 hours cleaning up after he's dropped you off at the hotel. The expert you're proposing to hire will make something less than $16 per hour and you think that's expensive?????? Give your head a shake buddy. Good thing you didn't contact me for a trip.
Incidentally, a tip to the guide is not included in the price of the trip. Standard tip rates are 10 to 20% of the trip cost. Having access to this website by the guide you have contacted, don't be surprised if he anticipates the lack of a tip because you already think he's too expensive.
wow, what a ray of sunshine you are. cant imagine why guys arent lined up to fork over $500 to spend 10 hours on the river with you.
ps. if hes already in calgary why is it $50 for travel costs. also, wtf is on the menu that Im paying $50 for lunch ( not sure why i would have to pay for yours as well). if i bring my own rod/reel/ etc, why am i paying $100 for the gear you have in your trunk or the drift boat you have back in the garage. I too think $500 for a walk and wade on a river in the middle of the city with easy access points and multitudes of willing fish is a tad excessive (great company aside).
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If you put people's pay on a percentage of their sales then it becomes commission thus making the sales people more agrressive in selling you something, thus making you complain that they are beeing too pushy or trying to sell you something you don't want.
Personally everytime I have been in WSS here in town I leave with absoultly no problems as I come in their with absoultly no preconcived ideas as to what I should or shouldn't get from going into the store.
After beeing in retail for the past 2 decades (20 years) I have come to realize that alot of people that walk into a big box store or any type of store for that fact and expect to get something out of that store, and unforntantly a store can not please everyone the way they want to be pleased, that unforntantly is just the facts of life.
I agree that customer service is very valable and I train my staff in giving the best customer service that they are able to but due to company rules or laws they are just not able to help out the customer the way they want to be helped out.
Other times I have seen that people say they want attention from the sales people while other say they don't, so what is a sales person suppose to do, be a mind reader, every customer is diffrent, thus making it very difficult for a sale person to be able to help out everyone the exact way they want to be treated.
Also with the ression in full swing alot of stores, weather it be a big box or a small shop, are looking at ways to reduce overhead and most of the time it comes down to lower pay or reduce staffing (remeebr the first job of any business is to make money) and when this happens customers tend to complain more loudly about things.
Grubas, maybe next time you walk into WSS here in the city don't go in with any preconcived ideas as what you should be recieving and see how your experince is then, if it is the samething, maybe try russels as they are not to far from where WSS is located. West Winds Fly Shop is not to far either and Gord Kenndy diffently knows his *hit when it comes down to the bow, and there is Country Pleasures and Fish Tales located very close by too. Lots to choose from and you don't nessassary have to go to WSS to get good deals, look around and see what you might find, or better yet for the best deals I am finding the internet the best way right now. Got a $500 water proof Loop rain jacket in a 2xl for $180 and only took two weeks to get to me.
2 decades (20 years
lol. you must think us a dimwitted lot bhurt.
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amazing the difference in sink rate when you use tungsten.
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I second the royal coachmen. Grayling are attracted to red, so fish dries with red on them, royal humpies can also be productive.
i was on the smokey 2 years ago in late august early september and had a ton of fun with mid sized foam hoppers.
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I don't usually measure fish any more , I do have a measure on my net and on my wading staff but seldom bother. Would rather keep teh catch tie down and in the water.
I have a mark on my rod that I measured at approx 19 inches. any fish that looks measureable, i just lay against my rod while still in the water. gives me a fairly accurate measurement without stressing fish or too much screwing around. I dont need exact lenght (18.656666788 inches), just like to know if a fish is pushing the 20 inch mark(that has become my barometer for "big fish" on the streams i like to frequent).
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I scratched marks into my net at 20 inches , 25 inches, 30 inches, and 35 inches. works pretty good. I also put 50cm, 60cm, 70cm, 80cm, and 89.5 cm (35 inch). No doubts about a fish's size, can be measured while releasing or while in the net. under 20 inches.... I dont usuallt measure those but if a guy needed to you could do so by knowing how far 20 inches really is.
using metric Brian? Im guessing bhurt(mm) is too
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One thing to add here is you are paying for the warrenty. The warrenty on these things are crazy! What other gear can you snap in half and get a new one? The only one I can think of is a tilley hat.
Matt
snapping a tilley hat in half? that would be a neat trick. do you have to wet it down and freeze it first?
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based on keeled streamer that I saw in Canadian Outdoorsman (I think?) but yes now that you mention it, it does remind me of a crazy charlie.
I didn't really follow any specific pattern just used the materials I had with the intention of making a streamer that would sink well and stay the right way up.
Materials List
Hook: Mustad Signature Circle Streamer 1x Long #2
Body: 2 pieces of non-lead one on top of the other, silver holographic tinsel, clear v-rib
Eyes: Lead painted barbells
Wing: Olive Super hair over chartreuse super hair over crystal flash
i will take a dozen in brown/white or black/white Karl. nice looking streamer
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Some buddies and I are heading to Kimberly to play golf in September and are looking for a sweet place to rent for a Friday and Saturday night. If anyone knows of some good rentals that would fit 8 people let me know. I think its going to be the weekend of Sept 11th-13th but that is still to be determined. Thanks.
Mark
try a website called VRBO(vacation rentals by owner). We have used them for a couple of boys golfing weekends and stayed in beautiful houses ( sleep 8 no problem) at both grey wolf in panorama and riverside in fairmont. these homes were 2500-3000 sq.foot places with ample bedrooms/pull outs for all.
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It was a few years ago, but I believe I paid around $450 for the XP. That isn't my point though, If I had paid $800 for it, I would still be every bit as happy, warranty is a past of it all, but the performance is outstanding. I also have a couple of steel/salmon sticks. One is an Echo that cost around $300, it is alright for chucking heavy weighted flies and has reeled in some pig Chinooks and a few nice steelies, but I picked up a new GLX 8 weight 10' last year that has turned the echo into a backup. There is no comparison in the action, the accuracy. I realize these are both higher priced rods I am fishing, but their performance has spoken to me and believe me, I've fished lower priced rods. My more moderate price rods do certainly catch fish still, my enjoyment just increases with fast action and a nice cast. Think cadillacs and tempos.
if it wasnt discontinued then you likely paid more than that (my understanding is that sage doesnt allow retailers to put their current top of line rods on sale). my point is all makers rip you off but you can get around that by purchasing discontinued lines.wait a year or so and the $850 Zs will be selling for $350-400 as well.
ps. prefer the caddy but would buy one that was a year old and save myself 30 percent
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I believe someone said in this topic that a good rod won't make your day better because fishing is about catching fish, not about standing in the water playing with your rod? I suppose we all look for different experiences, all have different reasons and connections, but I sure would have to say that my idea of fishing is MUCH different from yours! Of course I enjoy playing, landing, and admiring beautiful fish, big or small, but I equally enjoy the surrounding landscape and interaction with it, the solitude(depending where I am although I can ignore a lot when Im on the water) and the rhythm of the casts. My go-to rod for most trout fishing these days on rivers is a Sage XP. It casts like a dream. If I had a cheaper rod that felt that way to me, it would be my go to, but I haven't found that. I have a cheaper sage, I have a TFO and another rod I can't even recall the name of becuase it is that underwhelming. The XP puts my fly within inches everytime and throws buggers like you wouldn't believe. I know what the rod will do, just as im sure many of your favorite rods do as well, regardless of brand, they work for you. I CERTAINLY get less enjoyment out of fishing with a rod that i'm not feeling, as one part of my equation is lacking. Nice casts=happy place. Sure, short casts on small streams with stimmies for cutts doesn't warrant throwing with the XP, but man does it hum on the Bow, even the 'wood. So, to make a very long story short, we all look for a different experience, for a day to reach epic for me - the days I dream of all winter, and even pursue in BC in the winter- I need fish, tight casts, solitude, scenery. Was that ever convoluted!
did you pay full price for the xp when it was the latest sage line or pick it for $350 when they discontinued the XP and came out with the z axis line? at $325-350 ( what I paid for my 2 XPs) I agree that they are worth every penny.
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I've casted everything from high end sages to low end TFO's and the good ol' berkley cherrywood canadian tire specials. I'd bet if you took all the blanks, put no markings on them and had them all exactly the same color, and got 100 pro catsers to cast them all, the rods in the 100-300 dollar range would prefrom every bit as good as any others priced higher. The name "sage" or "orivs" is what your paying for, not a better stick... IMHO. If you want to spen a grand for a GREAT feeling stick, spend a bit more and go into bamboo.
cheers.
brian, how can that be when sage is using much more expensive materials ( at least i assume they do as apparently there is very little markup on their $800 rods)
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I think something that everyone forgot about is consumer perception. I once read about a study where they took a product that had all the same features as the average products in that space. They then priced it significantly lower than the other products in the space and brought in a focus group (just like real manufacturers do before they release a new product to market). The focus group was shown the comparable products and preferred them over the similar but lower priced product because they perceived they were better because of the higher price. They then took a different focus group and showed them the exact same product spread but this time set the price on theirs higher than the rest. Guess which product this group preferred?
At the end of the day, buy what you want. If you prefer to buy lower priced stuff that does what you want it to, then great. If you don't mind spending a little more for the perception of having something that will work better, it's your money so spend it how you like. Personally, I don't have many other hobbies outside of fly fishing and tying so I have no issues spending more money on the gear I want. While I'm out on the river I'm perfectly happy in my expensive Simms waders casting my $1000 fly rod with the $700 reel. Do I catch more fish than people with less expensive gear with less markup? Maybe, maybe not but I'm still happy and enjoying myself. It's called capitalism and the invisible hand of the market and a bunch of other stuff from ECON 201 that I've forgotten. If you don't want markup move to the Soviet Union. Oh wait, I mean China. Oh, they're capitalists now too? Umm, how about Cuba then?
great fly fishing in russia and cuba lol. dont mind markup, just seems naive to think it hasnt effected our sport. I too have few hobbies outside golf and FF so like to have quality gear. Im just happeir when i pay 50 percent of the cost because the clubs/rods i buy are one year removed from the latest line offered by the manafacturer of choice. Nyet to z axis,Dah to xp
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If i went out and bought the latest and greatest Taylor Made driver i'm sure it would NOT help my golf game. But when you find that new top of the line fly rod that casts like a dream you just know that you are going to have a great day on the stream :-)
I have watched low handicappers play great shots with poor equipment and high handicappers butcher the course with $3000 worth of clubs.The hacker still enjoys the sport but obviuosly isnt getting anything extra by paying a premium for his clubs. IMO, a good flyfisherman with a walmart special will outfish an average angler with a $1000 sage. If the price of the rod ( or the driver) enhances the experience for you then it is worth the cost, but think how good a day it would be if you got your $1000 dream rod for half price. I personally try to juggle quality with price by waiting for the deals that are out there. again, each to his own
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What do you base your approximation on? Can you give me an accurate cost structure of their manufacturing facility? Do they own or lease? Depreciation on their manufacturing equipment (ie, old or new)? How about their marketing department? Research and development? Pay structure of management and executives? Number of managers and executive? Inventory in stock? What is their quality program? Rejection rate? How much does it cost to change tooling for a production run? How big are their production runs?
Give me another hour and I can come up with a couple of hundred other questions.
I don't know the answer to any of them, but have been involved in manufacturing in a previous job. Always heard about how much money we made. Wish they were right. I'd have a bigger house, nicer car, and all the sage rods I can handle.
Anyway, this is probably pointless. Everyone rips everyone off and the world is a big mean place. Glad I don't really believe that.
Edit:
That is retail markup. Has nothing at all to do with the manufacturers markup.
The world is a big mean place when it comes to gettting the most bang for ones buck and getting a good deal. i guess we are just very lucky that fly rod makers (unlike almost every other business out there) dont need to make a big markup on their products and put the customer before the bottom line l. We are even more fortuante they are willing to take a 50 percent loss on products when they have outdated a line or series even though they must have to sell a hell of a lot of z axis rods to make up the difference ( especailly when they apparently barely cover their cost in the first place ). Perhaps my pessimism is unwarranted. sunshine and lollipops
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I don't have a lot of retail experience, but what I do know is the "standard" mark up with all (if not most) retail products is 100%, so one can presume that it's the same in the sports retail sector...
P
thats about what I would approximate as well. I figured the xps i purchased at $350 were roughly at cost for sage
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Not to get into a giant discussion on capitalism, but the system is somewhat self adjusting. If Sage was making immense profits on their rods, then other manufacturers would see these profits and want a piece of the action. There would be more competition (see Orivs, Loop, T&T, etc.), and to establish or maintain market share they will adjust their prices to compete-forcing the most established brand to adjust prices as well.
But if you don't believe that, then fine. Maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first, or last, time.
I believe the price has been "set" by all the manafactureers such that they all make a very good markup. Bad business for anyone to undercut and undercut prices. IMO, all the companies are ripping us if with regard to what it actually costs to make these rods compared to what they charge Joe average to buy them.As drake has pointed out ,prettty much every consumer item has this type of markup so there is little one can do except to take advantage of the loophole these companies provide when they discontinue lines and sell them for half the original cost.I have tried a z axis and for myself ( I am a fairly new to the sport with only 8 years invested) there was little difference between it an the XPs i use. Certainly not enough of a differnce to justify the $500 difference between what i paid for the XPs and what they are asking for the Z ( again this is just for myself). I am not trying to slag any company or anyone who is willing to pony up the $1000 to buy their favorite high end rod, just trying to give the original poster an option should he choose to wait on his purchase.
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do they take a loss when the next line is introduced? Probably, but my bet is that loss is factored in when the original sale price is set. I would assume they budget for some percentage of the total number of rods manufactured to be in circulation, unsold, when I introduce a new line. Those rods become unsellable at the old price when the new line is introduced, as people will automatically assume the new rod is better. So if they are willing to pay top dollar, they will almost invariably by the newest. So now I have all these rods just sitting there. Is it better to dump them at a price I think I can sell them for and recoup some cost, or just eat them? Easy answer. So part of the sales price of a new rod will be to make up for the planned "obsolesce" (which probably is not exactly the right term) of that line of rods in the future.
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Yak, I just saw that you don't believe the above (just saw headscan's post).
Really? Since every single product that Sage manufactures (or Orvis, or Taylor Made) will be replaced at some point, and every time there will be some amount of the old line still out there, unsold. You don't think they allow for that in their pricing policies? I sure would, and I know they do too.
Edit again:
So after the initial burst of cutting edge buyers and early adopters, come the more pragmatic buyers. I am one of them. I will wait for the next generation and buy the old one if I am looking for top quality gear. OR I can wait for the early adopter to get tired of his new toy, see the latest and greatest come out from another manufacturer, then buy the item he is tired of used on eBay. Most of my golf stuff comes to me used. People who are looking to buy game and can't seem to ever do it are my best friends!
Call me skeptical, but I still dont believe these companies are taking a loss on the old line and dont believe they are not making a big markup on the new line as well. While not involed in the rod building industry, I am familair with markups on consumer products in general and would be very surprised if the $800 z is costing them more than 2 or 3 hundred to produce. I realize there are other costs as well ( marketing,R and D etc, ) but they still make a big chunk on every rod they sell.
lol, agree with the golf equipment. While I dont generally buy used , I play Taylor made clubs ( like most guys my equipment is better than my swing
) and always wait for them to outdate a current line ( usually every 3-4 years) and then buy the old line for half price. The new line has minor differences at best ( much like fly rods IMO), so for half price I essentially play the same technology. -
Yes, they most likely did. They probably recoup some of that through tax write offs and the rest is probably made up with increased sales of the newly released line. The reason given to me by a fly shop owner for rod manufacturers discontinuing a line and introducing an only slightly revised version every few years is to get them reviewed in magazines. The mags don't tend to write reviews of gear that has already been out for a while. When the new line of rods comes out there's always going to be an initial rush of bleeding edge upgraders (same thing happens in the computer and electronics industries - just ask Apple) who cause an initial sales spike. When sales taper off, it's time to discontinue that line and introduce the new one, get it reviewed in the mags, then watch the sales jump up again.
lol, well dont buy that but regardless, i will wait for the new xyzpz axis to come out and then buy my zs for $350. reminds of a famous PT Barnum quote....
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If Sage, Orvis, and Taylor Made for that matter were in the business of gouging their customer, they would be out of business. There is too much competition, even for high end rods, for companies to charge outrageous prices and get away with it. I've had friends in both the fishing and golf industries. Neither got rich. The margins are just not that high.
If there was nothing but money to be made in the high end rod business, there would be more people doing it. Competition ensures that prices remain reasonable for the quality of the product.
why is then that these rods are worth half price as soon as the next line is introduced. did sage take a $300 loss on all the XPs once they started selling the zs? I agree that the guy trying to sell them out of a specialty flyfishing store isnt geting rich or gouging the consumer but you cant tell me that sage isnt making a bundle on every z axis they sell. Are the materials sage uses in the z axis that much superior to the TFO line to justify athe 500-600 dollar difference or are they merely duping the consumer with the name on the rod?
I am extremely happy with the 2 xps i have but Im even more pleased that i waited to purchase them for half price when the zs came out. i expect if a guy is patient the zs will also be half price once sage introdcues their next "inovation" to the flyfishing world
Guide For Bow River
in Ask the Pros
Posted
i suspect my logic is bang on and thus needs to be ignored