Bull's Breeding With Bows?

[Taco]

I think Behnke only groups the Atha bows with the Columbia red band, because he doesn't know where else to group them. If you re-read his section on them he seems to consider them a pretty strange little strain that is quite different from any other rainbow or red band.

 

Yeah I caught that but there other Alberta anomalies. In Trout and Salmon he writes that the classic spotting pattern on the westslope cutts is consistent throughout their traditional ranges and can be used as a identity marker but now it seems that maybe not quite true, at least in Alberta. Some recent and ongoing DNA studies on Alberta cutts have found that the heavily spotted cutts that most of us assumed to be not 100% westslope are if fact genetically pure.

 

We have some unique native fish in Alberta worthy of special protection

 

[Keith]

Yeah I caught that but there other Alberta anomalies. In Trout and Salmon he writes that the classic spotting pattern on the westslope cutts is consistent throughout their traditional ranges and can be used as a identity marker but now it seems that maybe not quite true, at least in Alberta. Some recent and ongoing DNA studies on Alberta cutts have found that the heavily spotted cutts that most of us assumed to be not 100% westslope are if fact genetically pure.

 

We have some unique native fish in Alberta worthy of special protection

 

Amen to that. I know that more research has been done on the Athabasca bows in recent years and there is now a joint federal/provincial panel getting together for westslope cutt conservation. We can only hope that these research studies and panel meetings will evolve into some kind of meaningful conservation initiatives.

 

At the risk of stirring up some sh1t, I recently heard rumour that Banff National Park sent a biologist down to the states to take the course on stream poisoning. There may be a movement to restore pure bulls and cutts to the park. However, this is only a rumour as far as I know.

 

[Taco]

Amen to that. I know that more research has been done on the Athabasca bows in recent years and there is now a joint federal/provincial panel getting together for westslope cutt conservation. We can only hope that these research studies and panel meetings will evolve into some kind of meaningful conservation initiatives.

 

At the risk of stirring up some sh1t, I recently heard rumour that Banff National Park sent a biologist down to the states to take the course on stream poisoning. There may be a movement to restore pure bulls and cutts to the park. However, this is only a rumour as far as I know.

 

And so it starts..... unlimited brookie harvest and some Provincial enforcement would be nice too. Last time I caught a cutt in the upper reaches of Cataract was in 2000.

[Keith]

And so it starts..... unlimited brookie harvest and some Provincial enforcement would be nice too. Last time I caught cutt in the upper reaches of Cataract was in 2000.

 

Part of your wish has come true Taco. SRD has recently initiated a special licensing program for some rivers in the Elbow drainage. Off the top of my head the list includes Quirk, Prairie (not the well known prairie near RMH), Powderface, The Elbow above the falls, and Waiporous. This license is available to anglers who can pass a species ID test, and have been on at least two (I think) supervised visits to Quirk. This license provides unlimited brookie harvest from the listed waters. I believe this is a pilot project that will hopefully see expansion.

 

I've been part of the Quirk program for a number of years now, so if any one is interested in the program or this special license send me a PM and I can try to point you in the right direction.

[Taco]

The best reason in the world to start carrying one of these again

 

[flyfishfairwx]

The best reason in the world to start carrying one of these again

 

 

just to stir up some stuff, how long does it take for an introduced species to become naturalized to it's new habitat, and the Habitat with it's supposed natural species to adapt to an introduced species, and then to settle down to a status, that is natural to each in the new status ?

 

Is this not how everything got every wheres, everything had to come from someplace else.. at sometime..

 

 

White tail deer are not native to SW Ab, and only the Athabasca Rainbows are native, the Browns not native.. the Rainbows interbreed with the Cutties...

 

Cattle have pushed out the Bison and we are not killing all the cattle to reintroduce the bison

 

SOOOOOOO.......

 

Why the vendetta against the Brookies..

 

I like brookies , and just want to understand the reason behind the licensing and rule modification for the Brookies on the Quirk, and other streams..

 

Educate me in the reason for this..

 

Sorry Taco it seems we always end up on the apposite side of the fence..

[maxwell]

im for killin brookie! bows too! were the native cutties and bulls might be at risk! but at teh same time amore hardy larger species like the cuttbow is just a good way too go down the road i suppose for longevity of the sport.. but it woudl really suck too see that our native and unique species of trout disapear ... so its tuff too call what we should do!

 

another thing taco..i know it was a long shot but this fish reminded me more of pics ive seen of a snake river cutt or a yellowstone.. i knwo we dont have them.. but it seemed odd! almost too pure for a westlope.. or just a freak! the photo dosnt show it but it had way more blue and purple in teh whole body wich seemd really odd! just a lucky one i suppose that hasnt got boinked by a bow?

[Keith]

just to stir up some stuff, how long does it take for an introduced species to become naturalized to it's new habitat, and the Habitat with it's supposed natural species to adapt to an introduced species, and then to settle down to a status, that is natural to each in the new status ?

 

Is this not how everything got every wheres, everything had to come from someplace else.. at sometime..

 

 

White tail deer are not native to SW Ab, and only the Athabasca Rainbows are native, the Browns not native.. the Rainbows interbreed with the Cutties...

 

Cattle have pushed out the Bison and we are not killing all the cattle to reintroduce the bison

 

SOOOOOOO.......

 

Why the vendetta against the Brookies..

 

I like brookies , and just want to understand the reason behind the licensing and rule modification for the Brookies on the Quirk, and other streams..

 

Educate me in the reason for this..

 

Sorry Taco is seems we always end up on the apposite side of the fence..

 

This line of discussion will probably head nowhere fast, but I'll take the bait. There are several reasons for removing brookies and bows from some watershed. I'll try to break down a couple of them.

 

1) The Moral Answer - Cutthroat are native here. They evolved here. Humans have undertaken fisheries policies that have pushed them to extinction in many area (some strains of cutt in the US have gone extinct). Since humans have pushed the Cutthroat to this outcome we have a moral obligation to pull them back. I think it's also important to note that these eco-systems don't necessary find a balance. As you questioned, how long does it take for a "supposed natural species to adapt to an introduced species?" In the case of the cutthroat trout the answer is often NEVER. Studies in Alberta, such as Bragg creek, have shown that Brookies increase in percentage until cutties are gone (IE the balance is 100 : 0). When studies initially started on Quirk it was about 50:50, a few years later it was 75:25 and eventually it was something like 95:5. Without the Quirk program it would likely be 100:0 today. It is the same with rainbows except through genetics. The rainbows breed with the cutts until there are no real cutts left. Personally, I think we found this species here and we have an obligation to preserve it for future generations. I'm not advocating the wholesale removal of non-native species, but I think that where there are still pure cutt populations left (and there aren't that many) we should be protecting them

 

2) The Sportsmans Answer - I know people like brookies. However, it is generally accepted that in Alberta waters cutts grow bigger. It is also generally accepted that they are easier to catch. Therefore, would you rather catch lots of big fish or less, smaller fish? I don't use this argument myself, but it is out there. Personally I would rather fish for cutts any day, but I wouldn't advocate fisheries policy based on that.

 

It's a complicated issue and I could go on all day, but those are the two most common answers.

 

[troutlover]

There are yellow stone cutts stocked in banff national park and they do have a way to get to the bow if one decided to go on a short journey.

[flyfishfairwx]

This line of discussion will probably head nowhere fast, but I'll take the bait. There are several reasons for removing brookies and bows from some watershed. I'll try to break down a couple of them.

 

1) The Moral Answer - Cutthroat are native here. They evolved here. Humans have undertaken fisheries policies that have pushed them to extinction in many area (some strains of cutt in the US have gone extinct). Since humans have pushed the Cutthroat to this outcome we have a moral obligation to pull them back. I think it's also important to note that these eco-systems don't necessary find a balance. As you questioned, how long does it take for a "supposed natural species to adapt to an introduced species?" In the case of the cutthroat trout the answer is often NEVER. Studies in Alberta, such as Bragg creek, have shown that Brookies increase in percentage until cutties are gone (IE the balance is 100 : 0). When studies initially started on Quirk it was about 50:50, a few years later it was 75:25 and eventually it was something like 95:5. Without the Quirk program it would likely be 100:0 today. It is the same with rainbows except through genetics. The rainbows breed with the cutts until there are no real cutts left. Personally, I think we found this species here and we have an obligation to preserve it for future generations. I'm not advocating the wholesale removal of non-native species, but I think that where there are still pure cutt populations left (and there aren't that many) we should be protecting them

 

2) The Sportsmans Answer - I know people like brookies. However, it is generally accepted that in Alberta waters cutts grow bigger. It is also generally accepted that they are easier to catch. Therefore, would you rather catch lots of big fish or less, smaller fish? I don't use this argument myself, but it is out there. Personally I would rather fish for cutts any day, but I wouldn't advocate fisheries policy based on that.

 

It's a complicated issue and I could go on all day, but those are the two most common answers.

 

Thanks for the info, I have always questioned that Quirk creek thing just did not know the answer, for sure. I agree that catching Cutties is great and that the native pure cutties should be protected and preserved. But and there is always a but.. if you let the cat out of the bag, it is very hard to put back in, or have you ever tried to herd cats.. imposable.. I say concentrate on keeping the remaining pure strain rivers that way, and contain the Brookies to were they are..

 

No and I mean no easy answer to this one....

 

 

[BBBrownie]

There were Yellowstone cutts stocked in many Alberta streams in the past. I've caught yellowstone or yellowstone/westslope hybrids in a few systems including Castle, North/South Ram...

[Wolfie]

yesterday i had a phone call come in to me in response to one i put in, from the Royal Ontario Museum..my registered trade is a biological technician in Ichthyology and Herpetology..for those that need to look this up I'll save you the trouble..it is .."Fish and Reptiles". I question the assistant curator, of that department for a lengthy time about what you all have been writing about..the various sub species of rainbows, and the chars..[cutties], because I've lost contact with all the changes in the fisheries over the years , i needed to understand as to what has taken place not only with the drastic changes of identification of species, but the introduction of so many hybrids..I was told point blank that back in '86, changes were on the table for lumping together certain species in the west, and the start of DNA testing began. These changes came from the USA, and Canada , [on her knees again], didn't put up a strong fight to prevent what had been purposed by the US..[behnke], so called top biologist at that time, but in the US. Where is our mouth pieces for Canada? I'm also told that we do have representatives on this joint board of fisheries..sorry [not] if I sound against the American [know it all ploy] but I'm a Canadian not an American puppet.

 

..anyway back to the inter breeding of the fishes [trouts/char] in Alberta, from what I was explained that the US introduced the various sub species with Canada to produce a formidable sport fisheries for this province just like what was happening out in the East at that time. But with lesser species than the pacific salmon, because the province's watersheds could not support those species.

 

..it was also explained to me that through the process of DNA, they have been pin pointing the origin of these sub species, and the origin of the rainbow trout, [salmo gairdneri] now being called 'Oncorhynchus mykiss gairdneri' since 1991, Rainbow Trout are actually a land-locked form of the anadromous Steelhead and yet the "Cutties" are in the genus of "Oncorhynchus", with the rainbow trout, and the Pacific Salmon. Now that 'Redband' trout is just a sub specie, and it is called scientifically 'Oncorhynchus mykiss ssp', the Bull trout [char] is being a separate specie with the genus..Salvelinus along with the Dolly Varden and the Eastern Brook trout..

 

..so as far as I'm told, we do have a variety of trouts to add to our fishing pleasure, thanks to the influnce from the American Government...........Wolfie

[Taco]

Thanks for the info, I have always questioned that Quirk creek thing just did not know the answer, for sure. I agree that catching Cutties is great and that the native pure cutties should be protected and preserved. But and there is always a but.. if you let the cat out of the bag, it is very hard to put back in, or have you ever tried to herd cats.. imposable.. I say concentrate on keeping the remaining pure strain rivers that way, and contain the Brookies to were they are..

 

No and I mean no easy answer to this one....

 

Why natives over introduced? Like Keith said, they evolved here under local conditions of sudden flood, extended drought and long brutal winters. They're tough bastards if they ain't being out competed. From rainbow competition it looks like the cutts can hide behind a temperature barrier, cutts typically like colder water than the rainbows but with brookies no such barrier exists and they aggressively breed with virtually no competition until the entire ecological niche is filled with stunted brook trout. Much the same as yellow perch when they have a decent feed source and no competition.

 

You mentioned whitetailed deer, whitetails followed agriculture west and pretty much thrived but they still use eastern winter survival tactics. The winter of 2002-3 (I believe??) was a bad one in Southern Saskatchewan , long and cold. The area around Val Marie had a large population of deer, about 70/30% whitetail to mule deer. When it got bad the deer did what deer evolved to do to survive. The whitetails yarded up in sheltered area like they do in the east and the native muleys disappeared into the windswept areas. It was ugly, starving dying deer everywhere there was shelter, 3-400 hd dead right in the village of Val Marie itself. When it finally breaks in the spring SERM (Saskatchewan Environment and Resource Management) does an assessment and they estimate that 96% of the whitetails and 60% of the mule deer died that brutal winter.

 

Sorry guy but as much as I liked huntin' wiley whitey or fishin' for bows with their aerial displays I'll take native over introduced, they have evolved the tactics to survive out west

 

 

[Taco]

There were Yellowstone cutts stocked in many Alberta streams in the past. I've caught yellowstone or yellowstone/westslope hybrids in a few systems including Castle, North/South Ram...

 

The stock for Ram fish came outta the Elk system I heard from a very reliable source, make you wonder how pure the Elk fish are. National Parks experimented quite a bit with Yellowstones @ one time. Yellowstone genetics in the Castle wouldn't surprise me but they have been testing pure higher up the system. I know of one little ck in the Porkies that look part Yellowstone to me because of spotting pattern. I directed a testing crew that way but haven't heard how they tested.

 

[Harps]

Taco, I don't think the crew made it up that way... I was sent the historic stocking reports (I can't find them though). I do recall that YCT were stocked in the creek. I'll look more.

 

Keith... there is some interesting findings that show that there is a temperature barrier between native cutts and hybrids on one of the Creeks in the south... of course, a 1 deg change in average annual temp could wreak all that.

 

 

And I don't think brookie supression works to remove brookies, just supress the population.

I'd rather see cutties in all these streams, but I'm not sure it'll happen.

 

WCT pops may be at that damaged point that we have to accept polluted genetics and cutts sharing with brookies. I don't think we can do much (fisheries regulations) to stop the Bows and brookies. We anglers as a group can't even get together and petition the gov't to make bigger buffers for logging cuttblocks and to make it illegal to drive OHV's instream, why would they care what we think about native fish... an issue that divides anglers.

 

 

 

Back to the original topic... Brookies are mixing with bulls (an issue), but Bows won't.

 

[Wolfie]

Of course Brookies will breed with Bulls if they don't get eaten first by the Bull...they are from the same genius..'Salvelinus'...now you won't expect a human to breed with a pig....that is if that human wasn't a 'hillbilly'..lol........Wolfie

[Taco]

now you won't expect a human to breed with a pig....that is if that human wasn't a 'hillbilly'..lol........Wolfie

 

nah we save that for friday nights down to the local 'tonk

 

[Wolfie]

Taco..Posted Today, 12:19 PM

nah we save that for friday nights down to the local 'tonk

 

..you know for a farmer who is up to his crotch in cow poop each night...U have a funny side to you......Wolfie

[Taco]

That's what I are, the old fart edition Mike Rowe of the rural Albertans undereducated set

[Wolfie]

That's what I are, the old fart edition Mike Rowe of the rural Albertans undereducated set

 

hey...'Off Topic' for a sec...what happen to ur rather 'bulling' sig...it was big before..ran out of 'hot air'? ........Wolfie

 

[Taco]

Oh like the last four posts were dead on topic.

 

Shrunk it, it was rather overwhelming, didn't wanna piss off the bamboo guys too much

[Wolfie]

Oh like the last four posts were dead on topic.

 

Shrunk it, it was rather overwhelming, didn't wanna piss off the bamboo guys too much

 

is that a racial slur?...."bamboo guys"....remember m8 .."one doesn't throw stones when one lives in a 'Glass House' "....

 

[birchy]

[Wolfie]

 

 

.........Wolfie