Is Fly Fishing Humane?

[RabbiEE]

You're a class act Eric.

In my travels I have had some good healthy debates with the fine people in the Jewish community and I was hoping you wouldn't take any offense to anything I wrote.

This will offend some, but I am sure I wouldn't have made the same comments in response if the article/post was made by someone of other faiths because I know they would not have taken any opposition as well as you.

Knowing, and hoping you would take it as you did allowed me, and others, to speak their minds. Thank you.

 

Thanks! In my opinion, the trick to a good debate is always focus on the issue at hand and try to keep ego and competitiveness out of it. Not an easy task!

[OneMoreLastCast]

Yes sir, and try not to say what you "think someone else meant"....

[Christofficer]

Cute.

[Glenbow]

I choose to believe what I believe, and I love to fly fish. I do not choose to enter debate on what I believe versus what others believe as I see it as a no-win situation. Others will agree and others will disagree and in the end it is still up to me to decide for myself. I respect all others' views, I just figured I'd add a different perspective to this without actively seeking to engage the subject.

[reevesr1]

(rickr)

That kind of reminds me of what people use to say about black people that they "could not feel pain" or that certain races couldn’t feel or think like we do... I'm not comparing people to fish though and I don't think fish can "feel" at the same level or intensity is human beings, however it is pretty ignorant to proclaim they do not feel pain, every animal feels pain and have a "fear" of death or else not much would exist. It is life’s ability to avoid death (or try to), which keeps things going.

 

If you do not believe fish can feel next time you catch one stick a needle in it and watch it squirm, you cannot tell me it does not feel at least some form of pain... (by the way I could never do that!)

 

I do not have a problem killing a fish as long is it's humane, and sustainable that being said I hardly ever keep fish because few streams are at there true carrying capacity and most streams are better of with the fish in them than out.

 

Fisher,

 

As I said, this is my opinion and I don't expect everyone else to share it. And I never said I don't think fish feel pain. I said I don't think they suffer. There is a big difference. Pain is the response to nerve endings sending signals to the brain. Suffering is an emotional response to pain. Emotions require higher brain functions. Fish ain't got 'em. If I thought they did, I wouldn't fish.

 

Tough subject to discuss, particularly since it gets to the core of someone's belief system and noone wants their belief system questioned. I can discuss it with you until the cow comes home, hopefully without malice or anger. But comparing my opinion to racism is cutting pretty close to the bone. I'm sure that's not what you meant, but if you did I would take pretty major offence to it. I am from the south and take that kind of stuff pretty seriously.

[reevesr1]

This reminds me of a certain issues and hot topics section that I used to get myself into lots of trouble in........ not gonna touch this one with a 10 foot pole

Hey lonefisher,

You know, it is too bad that we cannot discuss the hot topics without getting into trouble. I don't know when it became impossible to have discussion about differences of opinion without it getting personal and escalating into anger. Unfortunately, even when you are writing something in what you think is a neutral tone, that is rarely what is "heard" by the person you are disagreeing with. That's too bad as I really enjoy these types of issues and have no trouble separating the argument from the person, if that makes sense. People disagree and to me, that's one of the things that makes life fun.

 

 

RabbiEE,

Thanks for this. Very interesting discussion.

[gravelman]

As far as i am concerened if you enjoy fly fishing and do your best at catching and realeasing fish. Then hey do it. I am sure a few fish over the years died because of me fishing for them and i do feel bad for that but on the same token the fish that died may of fed a million different organisims that grow and allow other fish to feed and then grow and breed and produce more fish. Bassically what i am saying is the circle of life. Anytime i keep a fish it is out of a put and take type of place like chain lakes or okotoks lake. I do not feel bad doing this as these fish are put there for that reason. As long as the fish you take do not go to waste and they are consumed you are just continuing what our ancestors did when they lived from the land. I flyfish because it is a love of mine and i couldnt imagine what i would do with out.

[dube]

All I have to say is that flyfishing for me is a most humbling experience. I sometimes wonder about the fish, but my appreciation for them is deep. I find them truly beautiful and have often found myself mumbling "good job buddy" as I watch them swim off. They way I see it we could just as easily be prey (at least where I tend to fish) and so I feel I am reduced to somewhat of an animal myself, at one with nature but also at odds with it. Being outside wandering up a stream or river is purely primal and absolutely natural in the deepest sense, for me at least. Having said that I feel everyone is on a level field and the fish gets to go back so I don't really feel any guilt.

 

I am not religious in the least but flyfishing is very spiritual for me. I have become totally overwhelmed more than once while on a river and nothing can really describe what it feels like to be "out there".

 

I'm not saying I'm in some sort of delirious trance or anything but my senses are peaked and the whole experience definately affects me on a level that most things do not.

 

I really dig your little quote toolman it's one for the books for sure.

[Guest rusty]

It's really easy to fall into the poetic beauty of flyfishing - but anyone who has done it long enough will have no doubt seriously injured, maimed, and inadvertently released fish to die slowly. How many of us can say they've never hooked a fish in the eye, or snagged a small fish in the vitals?

 

Let's not forget that in many parts of Europe C&R angling is viewed as completely barbaric and in many places is not acceptable. Many people would be horrified to come on a board like this and read posts where people brag about catching and releasing "too many fish to count". Most if not all of us prefer fish that fight harder - and let's face it, fish fight the way they do because their instincts are telling them that it's a fight for their life.

 

It's no different than hunting. We don't intend animals to suffer, and we can do everything in our power to ensure that they don't - but the only way to ensure that you don't hurt a trout is to not fish for it.

 

At the end of the day, it's simple - if you're OK with it, have at 'er - and if you're not, don't do it. Just don't delude yourself into believing that this isn't a bloodsport.

 

I think anyone who's spent an appreciable amount of time outside and watched the natural order of things (and not the happy-pappy child shows where a lion and a zebra hug and become great friends at the end while they share a plate of sushi) will probably come to the conclusion that our sport is ethically acceptable.

 

After all, we aren't dogfighters, eh?

[troutlover]

ditto, that quote struck a good vibe with me as well. Thanks Toolman.

 

P.S.- Hey RUSTY what time is that show on it sounds AWESOME!!!

[dube]

I don't deny it's a blood sport but the overall experience for me is much more than hooking fish. I walk, climb, crawl, wade, stumble and sometimes swim my way back into the bush to find the little buggers so it's hard not to get swept away in how completely insignificant we are in the scheme of things. When I look up from the water and take in everything around me I feel the power of nature and am humbled by it.

[reevesr1]

After all, we aren't dogfighters, eh?

 

Very nice! A little Mike Vick humor. Love it!!

 

What's not so funny is that to many people, we are ethically the same as dogfighters.

 

Dube,

I agree completely. But I think the feeling you get from the experience of fishing, or being outdoors in general, is not directly related to the ethics or humaneness (is that a word) of the catching of the fish itself.

 

There is obviously something visceral in the catching of the fish that many of us are addicted to. I mean, we could get the same outdoors fix if we were bird watchers. Or if we fished with flies without hooks. But in reality, many of us really, really like the battle.

 

So as many here have said, not in exactly these words, is justify it internally any way you need to. If you can't justify it, stop (though if you are on this board, odds are you are not going to stop).

 

I thought the most poignant and honest post here was Clarki. He admitted something that had to be difficult for him to do. He fishes while thinking it is inhumane to the fish. That must be very difficult to justify internally. Clarki, I say this with complete seriousness, you have my total respect for that statement and my sympathy (not exactly the right word, but I hope you get my meaning) for having something you obviously love cause you conflict.

[lonefisher]

This reminds me of a certain issues and hot topics section that I used to get myself into lots of trouble in........ not gonna touch this one with a 10 foot pole

 

Hey lonefisher,

You know, it is too bad that we cannot discuss the hot topics without getting into trouble. I don't know when it became impossible to have discussion about differences of opinion without it getting personal and escalating into anger. Unfortunately, even when you are writing something in what you think is a neutral tone, that is rarely what is "heard" by the person you are disagreeing with. That's too bad as I really enjoy these types of issues and have no trouble separating the argument from the person, if that makes sense. People disagree and to me, that's one of the things that makes life fun.

 

 

RabbiEE,

Thanks for this. Very interesting discussion.

 

 

 

 

Rick Don't get me wrong I like good discussion I have just discovered that exactly like you said things do not always read the way they should and I am often bad at both the writing and interpreting of peoples posts. Especially when something ticks my temper......... And really almost all discussions come down to one difference--- perspective ------ this discussion is a perfect example of that. Its still healthy though.......

Its just with myself its only a matter of time until I am hucking spoons at jet boaters The internet world sometimes require more tact then I posess. I should only converse in person LOL

 

 

speaking of which AHHHH what I would give to have that whole thread back word for word completely unedited...... LOL it would be a hell of a good read

[RabbiEE]

The way I see it we could just as easily be prey (at least where I tend to fish) and so I feel I am reduced to somewhat of an animal myself, at one with nature but also at odds with it. Being outside wandering up a stream or river is purely primal and absolutely natural in the deepest sense, for me at least. Having said that I feel everyone is on a level field and the fish gets to go back so I don't really feel any guilt.

 

Hi Dube. I like what you wrote her a lot. You said it perfectly because I agree that when fly fishing, sometimes I feel at one with nature and sometimes I feel at odds with nature. In my view, the only problem is that most often we human beings are not at odds with nature, we dominate the planet. And that certainly gives us responsiblity in how we treat fish and all other living things.

[dryfly]

Pretty decent discussion .. NOT read all.

 

MTB wrote, "If you ask the question whether or not fishing is humane or not, and saying that sometimes you feel guilty, I believe that you do feel it is not humane and should not be doing it."

 

If WE don't ask the question --and sort it out in our minds -- then OTHERS will ask if for us. And if they ask (say) politicians then we stand a chance of losing. RabbiEE's original post is totally relevant. And in any case if we do feel some concern then that makes us better anglers.

 

Cheers all!

 

Clive

[OneMoreLastCast]

Pretty decent discussion .. NOT read all.

 

MTB wrote, "If you ask the question whether or not fishing is humane or not, and saying that sometimes you feel guilty, I believe that you do feel it is not humane and should not be doing it."

 

If WE don't ask the question --and sort it out in our minds -- then OTHERS will ask if for us. And if they ask (say) politicians then we stand a chance of losing. RabbiEE's original post is totally relevant. And in any case if we do feel some concern then that makes us better anglers.

 

Cheers all!

 

Clive

 

Very good point Clive. When I said it was not a great post as others stated, I really meant it was not necessarily a great "Thread". Let me explain.

 

I completely agree that it was a really good article and a great read that really made people think. I also agree that the the question asked was very relevant, but the problem I had was some of the responses that stated that people definitely felt guilt concerning Fishing, and that is each individual's right. I just don't believe that doing something that you feel guilty doing is right, or healthy for that matter.

 

As I said, "I don't mean to Offend", which usually means that I know what I am about to write will offend, and of course I read into it a little deeper possibly because it was written with religious overtones. I can't honestly say whether my reaction, and possibly other's reactions would have been different if the article was posted by DoctorEE or PlumberEE, rather than RabbiEE, but I just had a problem with Guilt being the overall reason driving the feelings discussed.

I understand that it was the question posed to Eric by others and the article was his response. I was just surprised by how many people replied that they did feel guilty, but still fished and my statement was aimed at any individual that feels guilty, and maybe they should reconsider fishing if they felt this way.

 

Here's a few thoughts I've had since this thread started.

 

1. When releasing a fish in the lakes in BC, more than once a Loon has scooped in and had that beautiful fish for a meal. Do I feel guilty that I might have caused that fish to die? I feel happy that I just supplied the Loon with a meal.

 

2. There have been times when I release a fish on a river and know that the fish's chances of survival are slim. Do I feel guilty that the fish will most likely not survive? No, because as we know, nature will take care of it and it will now enter into the circle of life whether it be to feed another animal, fertilize the plant life or what ever Mother Nature has in mind for it now. I look at it as possibly saving another fish, because the Osprey, Loon, Bear, etc. that might have fed on the fish I just released, won't have to kill a healthy fish.

 

3. Most of us have killed wildlife in our vehicles, whether it be a small bird or a Deer. We are not going to stop driving right.

 

 

As Clive said, If We don't ask the Question, others will for us....For every question, there is often going to be debates and opposition, and that is how we get answers. By so many showing a vested interest in this topic, if "They" asked this question, it would not go unanswered.

[Hawgstoppah]

3. Most of us have killed wildlife in our vehicles, whether it be a small bird or a Deer. We are not going to stop driving right.

 

LOL.... good point. I've killed more cute and cuddy things on the road than you guys would wanna know!

 

This in an interesting discussion. I think that I'd sum up my feelings on this by saying... do your best to minimize your impact, treat the fish and the outdoors with your utmost respect, pack out some garbage, make the phone calls when you see poachers or signs of poaching, do things that make a difference, but do NOT feel guilty for what your doing. If your doing all the other things, your more than offsetting the few fish your going to unintentionally kill.

[SteveM]

Some very interesting food for thought in this thread.

Now, everybody: Stop thinking- go fishing!

[clarki]

rickr, thanks for those nice words. I know what you mean. although, i have never considered it a conflict within myself whether or not what I am doing is right. I just cant help myself, the water, the fresh air, the scenery, the company, heck I even enjoy a nice 2 hour drive for some fishing. i am totally addicted to the take, whether it be a rise to my drys or the indie going under or that unmistakable take of a walleye on my jig. fishing is my ultimate escape from everything. sure I have felt guilt over a fish that I had to release due to the regs, that I felt certain was not going to survive, but what i tell myself is that if this fish dies it will make room for another fish to grow bigger and also that dead fish is going to directly feed another fish or group of fishes. for me this was an easy conclusion to come to. it was never a conflict. as long as I know I have done everything in my power to give that fish a chance for survival (outside of putting a hook through its mouth) upon release then its on to the next one.

 

I would like to know how many people on this forum are hunters of big game or birds.

 

great topic Rabbi, im sure a lot of people dont know why they fish and havent thought about it.

 

later

 

M

[SteveM]

I big game hunt, Clarki; catch & release only, though.

[Pipestoneflyguy]

Was wondering if I would have to change my sig this morning LOL

 

Glad to see such a interesting conversation generated by Eric's thread. Looking at some other threads it appears we have a bunch of old punk rockers debating ethical and moral guilt on a fly fishing site, how can you not love that !

 

Last night I proceeded to a fav spot in Yoho and landed three bullies. I also lost a couple brookies off of dry takes. The fish were absolutely beautiful as was the view as the sun set across the confuence of the three rivers. I did lift out a 16"er just to get a quick look at its georgeous "jet fighter" styled and coloured body, the others, I released peacefully under water. As I packed my gear and got on my bike I took a minute to reflect on this thread. The only guilt I felt was that so many people in the world will never get an opportunity to experience the beauty and grace in life and nature that I had been enjoying in blissfull solitude for the previous couple hours. In terms of my impact on the environment I felt more like I had made a symbiotic connection as opposed to a destructive intrusion - I left things as close to undisturded as possible within my abilities as a C&R fly angler. When I lifted the bull out, it didn't fight or struggle we simply looked at each other momentarily and then returned to our respective worlds. Contemplating the colapsing bridges, kids pushing kids under trains, wars and tragedies that we are bombarded with everyday in our lives I would define my flyfishing experience as close to achieving spiritual perfection, that a non religous person such as myself will ever get. If I did feel guilty before this thread, I sure don't now.

[RabbiEE]

Was wondering if I would have to change my sig this morning LOL

 

Glad to see such a interesting conversation generated by Eric's thread. Looking at some other threads it appears we have a bunch of old punk rockers debating ethical and moral guilt on a fly fishing site, how can you not love that !

 

I'm quite amazed too and such a interesting conversation. Thanks! Rabbi