Anti Taser Crap

[Guest Sundancefisher]

The biased press is at it again by blaming the taser for the death of some criminal.

 

The mom says now that the cops might as well of used a real gun. Well someone should explain to this lady that the cops taser did not kill the kid but rather the kids behavoir and attitude which goes against social convention such as for instance...hmmm... branishing a weapon at a cop.

 

The lady may be feeling extra bad cause she may know the kid was either not brought up properly by a responsible parent or else the kid had mental problems or drug problems just waiting to explode. Fortunately only he died and not innocent people.

 

I have no problem with given crooks the option if there is time. Like how about..."Excuse me sir...you appear to be threatening me with a weapon...you now have the choice of two doors. Behind door number one is a taser and behind door number two is a gun. Which do you prefer me to shoot you with?"

 

These bleeding heart do gooders that have never been assaulted, robbed, etc. want criminals to have a nice restful time in jail after serving 1/10 of there sentences. Really makes me laugh.

 

Anyways. To all the cops out there...I support you 110% and glad you are out there protecting me and my family and putting your life on the line. If you have reasonable doubt that your personal well being or those of the public is in jeopardy...blast the bad guy with either a taser or a gun... Your choice.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[Guest RedWiggler]

Not to mention, how many cops have been killed in the last 5/6 years. At this point when you are asked to drop your weapon, you do it or you are going to get blasted.......plain and simple!!!! I dont blame them for it either, cops have to put up with so much *hit out there that I am surprized they dont shoot more people. I am with you all the way but I think you have been a little harsh to the family of the kid that got tasered, its there kid and I am sure they believe the cops were in the wrong. If it were my kid Im sure I would feel the same way but what can you do, kid had a weapon and would not put it down. Just like the guy in Vegreville a couple weeks ago. *hit they gave him eight chances to drop his gun before they capped him.

[reevesr1]

I don't know any of the specifics of this case. It could have been completely legit use of a Taser. But, you would have to be completely blind to not see Tasers being over used. Are they better than a real gun? Well, duh. But if you shoot a gun at someone, you freaking well know you may very well kill them. Not so with a Taser, the odds are you are just going to incapacitate him. And because of this, IMHO, they are being used far too frequently when a potential deadly amount of force is not warranted. If you are a law enforcement officer, and you use it where it is not required, then the full weight of the law should fall on you. That said, they are a great tool when used properly. As they almost always are.

 

And I completely agree with RW. To give it the blanked "punk kid wasn't raised right" sentiment is harsh. You don't have the slightest idea how that kid was raised.

 

Oh, and if that makes me a bleeding heart do gooder, then so be it. I like that better than the alternative.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

I see way to many kids not taking responsibility for their actions and the parents often foster that by not teaching them those values and in turn turning a blind eye. Gezzz...no officer...my little Johnny is an angel. No way he could of done them things you accuse him of". I do not think for a second that she did not see some warning signs her kid was not a choir boy.

 

I see lots of beligerent kids beaking off at adults, not respecting people and property and it frustrates the hell out me when I have to explain to my kids why some other kids are behaving the way they do.

 

That kid had a knife and was threatening cops. That is magnitudes worse then above. I have seen parents say their kids are trouble...they are hurt by it and for what ever reason the kid had a mental problem and it was most likely not the parents fault. When she starts throwing the blame game around it is totally unfair to the poor cop and his family cause rest assured he is having trouble sleeping and thinking about the what ifs so that he does not have the remorse of killing a 17 year old even if he had no choice.

 

I am sure she is hurting however as it was her kid but she has to potentially accept some fault which yes probably hurts a lot...so much that you would want to not face it.

 

That being said, the liberal media always portrays the worst in every situation to gain viewers. I do not buy the tazer thing being out of control. When to use it is critical. A guy standing there being rude is no excuse. A kid with a knife is. In this day of knives, guns, aids etc. cops do not rush in anymore to knock a guy down with batons. A hit to the head, a snap of the neck of a cop by a guy high on crack or meth can loose a family his mom or dad or son or daughter.

 

I still believe in erring on the side of the law. Quite frankly I learned young that guilt by association is often also followed by proof of guilt by association. Don't hang out with criminals, don't do drugs, don't carry weapon...simply don't break the law.

 

Ya my rant is right wing but we need more right wing justice and laws in Canada before it is too late.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[reevesr1]

I still believe in erring on the side of the law. Quite frankly I learned young that guilt by association is often also followed by proof of guilt by association. Don't hang out with criminals, don't do drugs, don't carry weapon...simply don't break the law.

 

Ya my rant is right wing but we need more right wing justice and laws in Canada before it is too late.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

 

Phew. Glad your not making the laws.

 

Edit:

Just to be clear, I say the above because I'm pretty sure your justice system is based on the same model as the US justice system. Neither of these "err on the side of the law." Usually despotic regimes do that. Go try some out, I'm sure they are nice places to live. Hope you are never accused of anything.

 

Ours err on the side of the accused. Not perfect either, but again, better than the alternative.

[fishinhogdaddy]

We need the death penalty back. An eye for an eye in my books. Maybe that would shake up a few no gooders.

FHD

[ghus32]

I agree,

 

Child abusers and molesters should get life and castration and daily beatings.

Police are in danger because they cannot do a freakin thing, pretty much wait till the guy shoots at them and then he still might get sued because our law system is a pile of *hit.

 

I think CO's should have tazers as well. See a dude poaching, give em a taze that would show em hahaha

[reevesr1]

An eye for an eye in my books.

 

Cool, going old testament. Should we stone adulterers? A crucifixion or two? I haven't seen a nice evisceration in years.

 

Kill the wrong guy every now and then, ahhh too bad. The price of a "proper" justice system, no?

 

This sentiment fits right in with some middle eastern, pacific rim, and countries in southern climes. Again, nice places to live without much crime. I can just see the Canadians lining up to emigrate to these "safe" havens.

 

Be careful what you wish for. One day you might get it. You'll be safe, but terrified.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Phew. Glad your not making the laws.

 

Edit:

Just to be clear, I say the above because I'm pretty sure your justice system is based on the same model as the US justice system. Neither of these "err on the side of the law." Usually despotic regimes do that. Go try some out, I'm sure they are nice places to live. Hope you are never accused of anything.

 

Ours err on the side of the accused. Not perfect either, but again, better than the alternative.

 

Ahh...but rickr. You see you were once like me looking at the world as we want it to be and not as it is. A kid that hangs out with a known gang member is going to be a gang member. A kid that goes around with a buddy at night watching him do B&E's is just as bad as the kid doing the B&E's. A guy watching a rape and not stopping it is just as bad as the rapist. People forget that fact and say so long as I do not touch the person, touch the merchandise, throw the rock etc. I am not a bad guy.

 

My point is kids need to learn what is right and wrong. That kind of law...not let the government and cops decide the law...the courts have decided the law based upon social justice and public opinion.

 

A kid that is doing drugs is NOT a good kid. He or she is a troubled kid. Some kids break free of the troubles and grow up...for others it leads to a life of crime. We tolerate way to much aberrant and unsocial behavior in the name of not getting involved and they will grow up etc. We have to take responsibility for what our kids are doing, where they are doing it and with whom they are doing it with. If we do not start at an early age and guide them appropriately I feel as parents we have some responsibility for negative outcome. Sometime trying will not lead to success in a really unstable minded child but without trying you as surely condone the behavior. If your 12-14 yr old kid was out doing B&E's at 2 am and you did not know the he was out...you are to blame also. If your kid is hanging out at the 7-11 doing drugs...you have responsibility.

 

To many kids get away with too much from absent parenting homes.

 

Sun

[kungfool]

"Quote : Anyways. To all the cops out there...I support you 110% and glad you are out there protecting me and my family and putting your life on the line. If you have reasonable doubt that your personal well being or those of the public is in jeopardy...blast the bad guy with either a taser or a gun... Your choice."

 

There were three city police officers at the Rockyview hospital two weeks ago that punched out a drunk lady for spitting at them. One of them punched her in the face about a 6 or 8 times until she was bleeding from her mouth, nose, and cheek at which time they put a brown mask over her face to stop here from spitting (and to cover up the damage).

 

The hospital security is instructed (and complies) to turn off the surveillance cameras before they lay into people who resist in this fashion. Is this proper justice? Do you back them 110%? This happens quite regularly. And before anyone askes, this is not second hand information.

 

I think that there is times where force is necessary but there are times when it is used improperly. Police are people too and they make bad decisions like the rest of us. Each officer is responsible for his/her actions, and no one should categorize them as a group.

 

Two things I do agree with is that the press is bias and this particular kid probably got what was coming to him.

[Pythagoras]

He was IDed by two different people as the guy who just pulled a robbery....he ran and failed to drop a weapon when confronted by an officer of the law....whats the problem tazing his ass?

 

I have read alot of opinions on a couple boards and I just don't understand the posters who say he shouldn't have been zapped.

 

The cop is sombodys son too....should he try and take this 17yr old in a fair fight? Maybe pull out the baton instead and get himself knifed in the face? Fawk that!

 

The tazer is a great tool to give cops range on those who are resisting arrest. It does a couple things real nice...first it puts a guy down for a few seconds so he can be controled and second...gives the perp the strong desire of never wanting to be hit with it again.

 

If you think it's being overused your just not aware of how much it was needed.

[jonny5]

I have read alot of opinions on a couple boards and I just don't understand the posters who say he shouldn't have been zapped.

 

The cop is sombodys son too....should he try and take this 17yr old in a fair fight? Maybe pull out the baton instead and get himself knifed in the face? Fawk that!

 

I wasn't there, so i don't know, but I think pepper spay is a better alternative in general... but again, I wasn't there, and if some douche bag pulled a knife on me well I would be ok with tazerring the sh!t out of him.

 

On a lighter note, can I get one of those tazer things in canada? Incase one of the neighborhood hoodlums pisses on my grass?

[reevesr1]

A couple of points:

I am not disputing the usefulness of a taser. I think when used properly, it is an excellent tool. But when used improperly there needs to be consequences. One of my favorite quotes is (paraphrased) "just because you have a hammer, not everything is a nail."

 

Sun,

I have absolutely no issue with what you said about parenting. But I absolutely think you have to be very careful about asking for harsher law and order. While I would agree that there is too much lenience today, in my mind too little lenience is far, far worse. The balance is very difficult to pull off. Our society is based on innocent until proven guilty. Thankfully. To have a totally just society more based on guilty until proven innocent, the people making the decisions have to be just themselves. Not some of them, ALL of them. Can we say that? Most cops are hard working, fair, just individuals doing an impossible job. Some are not. Not many, but enough to make me petrified of a system of guilty until proven innocence. I could say exactly the same thing about judges, prosecutors, etc.

 

Now once convicted and sentenced, time needs to be served. And when the crime is harsh, the punishment should be harsh. The problem is keeping people in jail is expensive. And until it is better funded, people will be let you early. I go back and forth internally about the death penalty. Right now, I think I'm against it. I have a hard time reconciling myself with the possibility of killing an innocent person.

 

I also truly believe it is better to think the best about people than think the worst. Does that make me naive? Probably. But I would much rather think the best of someone and be disappointed periodically in them (which happens very seldom) than spend my life thinking the worst. I'm happier thinking the best. Makes me a bit of a Pollyanna. I'm ok with that.

 

Pythagoras,

I think the Taser was needed. I also know it is ABSOLUTELY being overused. The two things aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not saying get rid of it. I'm saying punish those using it incorrectly. Good cops need praise. Bad cops need punishment, just like any other criminal. I was in the military for 8 yrs, and I'd say exactly the same thing about any service member. You would have a hard time finding anyone who respects good law enforcement officers more than I do. Or loath bad ones more than I do.

 

 

Edit: A bad cop is not one who thinks he is in imminent danger and uses a taser. A bad cop is one that knows he is not in danger and uses a taser out of anger.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Totally agree that justice must include innocent before proven guilty. This is a new thread which should have everyone agreeing. I fully agree...innocent before proven guilty. The only thing that kid was judged on was common sense and he failed the test I guess. Tough luck for him.

 

This thread though was solely on a kid pulling a knife, getting tasered and the mom blaming the cop and not the kid and his potential up bringing. Kids need to grow and do new things and take risks, push the envelope so to speak to "find themselves" but as parents our job is to teach them respect and boundaries that do not get crossed.

 

Cross those boundaries and you pay the price as any responsible person should. That process is a long and complex process.

 

In a nutshell, you pull a knife on a cop and don't drop it...what should happen? You should be forced to do that. Choices are shot, taser or hand to hand combat.

 

Taser is the only choice. Cops taser each other as part of training. None have died. Maybe the kid had a heart condition, maybe on drugs, maybe hit his head falling, maybe had a bad reaction.

 

If a person does not want that risk when getting tasered...don't threaten a cop or anyone else for that matter. Scream..shout, stomp your feet etc...but don't ever threaten another person with violence...especially a cop. I also know the majority of cops are good. I also know about making split second decisions and if in a life or death situation a cop has to always err on the side of caution.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[Smitty]

Rickr:

 

Tend to agree with you, I too have a case of "rose-colored-glasses" syndrome. It's sort of intentional naivety.

 

I think people are shortsighted if they think police shouldn't be second guessed. Every authoritative body needs oversight, but I recognize that there is no one saying there shouldn't be.

 

People should also be careful about their broad generalizations and painting kids with too wide a paint brush. I taught for ten years in junior/senior high, not every kid who smoked pot is a "bad" kid, as Sundance would have you believe (Do I misquote you here Sun? If so, then clarify...)

 

Bottom line is the vast majority of cops and kids are decent, and everyone has some shades of gray in their personality. Not everything is black and white, unlike the pundits on Fox news would have you believe.

 

The world - or more specifically people - are far too nuanced.

 

No one's gonna convince in the entire history of cop beatings, cop shooting suspects, and cops tasering people, the cops have been entirely right 100% of the time and everything is righteous. Its a good thing - when its done and it works - that when a cop uses force, there's paperwork and an investigation. At least that way it ought to be, so at least the good cops then can get cleared and carry on without a guilty conscience.

 

Sun, I see you're point too. Plenty of kids whining about why "I" am failing "them" in math class, yet they or their parents don't want to discuss (or they get their hackles raised in a hurry) about (1) no homework done (2) non-existent study habits, and (3) absence rates over 30%. And then they question me and wonder why they're getting 25%. I feel like those penguins from the movie Madagascar..."just smile and nod boys, smile and nod..."

 

So, like most people here, I too see both sides of it. But really, if we categorized every kid that has done pot and/or underage drinking as "bad", well, lets just say then there are a lot of "bad" kids out there...

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Guest Sundancefisher]

I strongly believe that doing drugs...any drugs is a bad thing. This is where I guess I do differ from a few of you. Drugs can lead to other drugs. Drugs are what causes a huge amount of the crime. Drug dealers killing drug dealers, meth addicts stealing for money and selling themselves for money.

 

Just because a large number of pot smokers "grow" out of it or do not abuse it or eventually just stop does not make that drug any less dangerous to society. Not all pot smokers are "cool dudes".

 

Yes you quoted me right. Kids doing drugs have a problem and are "bad" compared to kids not using drugs.

 

Hey this could be a thread hijack on my own thread but I just wanted to confirm your quote.

 

I have also never said that the police should not be second guessed. The best thing about Canada compared to some other areas of the world is that police can get arrested and can also go to jail. This is not disputed anywheres by anyone so far so not sure why it came up.

 

Under this thread the only point is that you threaten a cop with a weapon...you are an complete idiot and deserve what happens which is self evident...

 

So in a nut shell I think we are all agreeing on the main points regarding how to treat a guy coming at you with a weapon...that you are innocent before proved guilty and that cops are not above the law... Hope I condensed that correctly.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[booboo]

Lets not fool ourselves; troubled kids can straighen out their lives, just as easily as good kids can turn into criminals.

 

What ever happened to cops taking a perp down old-school, tackling him to the ground and taking his knife from him, throw in a couple slaps in there if needed, I don't care? If you seen the vancouver airport video, the cops walked up to the man and in less than 1 minute they tasered him. Was he really that threatening? Is a 17 year old kid, that must have been scared s--tless so intimidating to grown "trained" men and woman that they need to taser him?

 

I am not trying to blame the cops, maybe they did do everything they could with the 17 year old but they definitely did not with the polish man.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Lets not fool ourselves; troubled kids can straighen out their lives, just as easily as good kids can turn into criminals.

 

What ever happened to cops taking a perp down old-school, tackling him to the ground and taking his knife from him, throw in a couple slaps in there if needed, I don't care? If you seen the vancouver airport video, the cops walked up to the man and in less than 1 minute they tasered him. Was he really that threatening? Is a 17 year old kid, that must have been scared s--tless so intimidating to grown "trained" men and woman that they need to taser him?

 

I am not trying to blame the cops, maybe they did do everything they could with the 17 year old but they definitely did not with the polish man.

 

 

Interesting. I would love to see you disarm a man with a knife. I am sure your wife and kids would also love to see you do that.

 

You are not thinking clearly when it comes to the premise of not putting oneself at undue personal risk. I am not sure how old you are but against an average 17 year old you are probably at least evenly match. If over 40 you are probably at a disadvantage. Many 17 year olds are as big as an adult these days.

 

Any cop that is using common sense is not going head to head with anyone with a weapon. That would be as stupid as threatening a cop with a weapon. IMHO

[birchy]

Where's that little "popcorn smiley" when a fella needs it?!!

[Guest RedWiggler]

Hey SUN that comment you made about kids doing drugs are bad compared to kids not doing drugs is just an ignorant comment. Do you have kids? if so would you think they were bad or worse than someone elses kid if you busted them smoking weed or something? my guess is no you would not. You said in an earlier post that you have never done drugs, do you drink beer or any other kind of alcohol? Booze is just as bad as any other drug the differance is that it is legal so people like you deem it socially acceptable which I personally think is a total joke and the worst case of ongoing denial I have ever heard of in my life. Bad people are just bad people. I have 4 kids one of which just finished grade 10 and subsequenlty got busted smoking weed with some of his friends, he is a really good kid, very indipendent and very smart in school, I think he is one of the coolest kids I have ever come across and if someone were to tell me that they thought there kid was better than mine or that he is bad becuase he got busted smoking weed then I am sure I would have to throw some blows plain and simple. He isnt bad he is a teenager and teenagers do stuff like this, they get high or drunk for the first time, they get laid for the first time (if your lucky)this is how we learn about life man, it does not make you a bad person.

 

Do you have any experience with drugs or kids that do drugs? or do you sit back and say that drugs and anyone that does them are bad? If you had any experience you would not talk like that, I think you would be a little bit more understanding. I personally have been on both sides of the fence in a major way and happen to know for a fact that not everyone that does drugs are bad not even close or in the same ball park, that was just an ignorant comment.

 

This kid got killed and all you can do is say he deserved it and that parents dont have a right to blame anyone, I would love to hear what you would say if it were your kid?????????????????????????????????????????? *hit man a kid got killed. I like what booboo said about an old time take down, I think the cops could have over whelmed him without tasering him that said I dont blame them for tasering him. Cops put up with so much *hit out there, that like I said before I am surprized that they dont shoot more people out of fear of there own lives.

 

Sorry about the rant I just think your comments about drugs and people/kids who do them is completey unwarranted. I dont think drugs are good but I also dont think that people who do them are bad, bad people are just bad, drugs or not. Drugs are not the only reason people do bad things, money and religon are right up there.

[booboo]

Interesting. I would love to see you disarm a man with a knife. I am sure your wife and kids would also love to see you do that.

 

You are not thinking clearly when it comes to the premise of not putting oneself at undue personal risk. I am not sure how old you are but against an average 17 year old you are probably at least evenly match. If over 40 you are probably at a disadvantage. Many 17 year olds are as big as an adult these days.

 

Any cop that is using common sense is not going head to head with anyone with a weapon. That would be as stupid as threatening a cop with a weapon. IMHO

Well I'm not a trained cop. I see a cops as being able to take a kid down at will. Maybe tasers are making them lazy.

 

I obviously would never expect an officer to go head to head with anyone that has a weapon, that would be stupid. I've never seen just "one" cop respond to a situation like that and try to deal it by him/herself.

 

Maybe I'm not thinking clearly because I have smoked pot.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Well I'm not a trained cop. I see a cops as being able to take a kid down at will. Maybe tasers are making them lazy.

 

I obviously would never expect an officer to go head to head with anyone that has a weapon, that would be stupid. I've never seen just "one" cop respond to a situation like that and try to deal it by him/herself.

 

Maybe I'm not thinking clearly because I have smoked pot.

 

The definition of a kid varies from a baby to just under 18. A kid reaches an age to make prudent life decisions if brought up properly at what age? Maturity for some kids varies. As for a cop taking down a 17 year old you have just to look at your average cop these days. Great folks but no longer solely 6 foot 4 Irish Canadians used to brawling and street fighting... Ahhh the good old days. Now the entrance requirements for stature, weight etc. have dropped significantly. Now many cops can not be guaranteed a win in a fight. To loose is really really bad don't you think?

 

At least you mentioned the weapon reason for using tasers. How about a kid high on crack, meth or whatever. They can be absolutely nuts. How about if he has aids? Want his blood in your eye or a cracked knuckle? Easy for you to judge the cop when you would never consider doing the job yourself. You have to put yourself in his or her shoes based upon all variables. Then throw an instance life or death decision in front of you. How much time are you going to go over your options? Balance the odds? Think of your wife and kids? Being a reasonable person yourself?

 

On the CBC this morning I heard they interviewed the 17 year olds dad. He discussed how innovated the kid was... How he probably only was stealing for booze or drug money and how he was smart enough to collect all the pot butts and put the leftovers together to make a full doobie.

 

Interesting family. If so I can see who failed the boy and it was not the system.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/07/25/langan-father.html

 

Very clear to me the father and mother BOTH failed their boy. He stated he was proud of his son even though he drunk, used drugs, stole, did B&E's, dropped out of school... and then was stupid enough to pull a knife on a cop. Man those parents IMHO should be jailed for child abuse cause they certainly didn't do their job as a parent.

 

What parent is proud of that behavior? What parent should not be worried sick trying to help turn the kids life around? Where were they during his life?

 

On another thought...anyone know the mechanics of one of these tasers? Wondering if it would work as an electrofishing device?

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[Harps]

On another thought...anyone know the mechanics of one of these tasers? Wondering if it would work as an electrofishing device?

 

Sun

 

Wouldn't work very well... the pulsations required to bring fish in would definately fib the heart... not just maybe.

 

 

 

Oh, and 3 of my brothers are cops and one sister-in-law... If somebody pulls a knife on them or refuses to drop a WEAPON... they deserve what is coming, whether it is a mostly non-lethal tazer shot (yes my brothers elected to get hit with a taser during training) or something that is generally always lethal (bullet).

I don't care who that person is, like mentioned before you DO NOT refuse to give up a WEAPON when an Officer of the law tells you to. Period.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Wouldn't work very well... the pulsations required to bring fish in would definately fib the heart... not just maybe.

Oh, and 3 of my brothers are cops and one sister-in-law... If somebody pulls a knife on them or refuses to drop a WEAPON... they deserve what is coming, whether it is a mostly non-lethal tazer shot (yes my brothers elected to get hit with a taser during training) or something that is generally always lethal (bullet).

I don't care who that person is, like mentioned before you DO NOT refuse to give up a WEAPON when an Officer of the law tells you to. Period.

 

Do you ever pay speeding tickets?

 

:-)

[Harps]

Do you ever pay speeding tickets?

 

:-)

 

Too many!!!