Brownstone Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Heard this am on the radio about alot of dead,(even more sick,expected to die) migratory birds in Ft.McMurray from landing in one of the tailing ponds..can't seem to find a link yet but im sure it'll be on the news tonight .. as I understood one or more of the deterrant cannons failed yesterday or overnight allowing the birds to land in the toxic slough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lundvike Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Calgary Herald I heard that snow had hampered the cannons so that they weren't scaring away the birds. Kind of short sighted not planning for snow in Fort McMurray or anywhere in Canada for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headscan Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Here's a link: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/20...ucks-follo.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lundvike Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 After reading the article apparently they were in the process of installing cannons but they were hampered by cold weather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beedhead Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 What a shame....I can't wait to get out of the Oil Patch....Soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brownstone Posted April 30, 2008 Author Share Posted April 30, 2008 What a shame....I can't wait to get out of the Oil Patch....Soon... conventional drilling can't be compare to what is happening up there..Ive been into new well completions for ten years and I can't describe the feeling I got when I went to Ft. McMurray and seen what they are doing up there.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beedhead Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 I feel kinda guilty due to the fact I was drilling Core and Plug back abandonment wells up there all winter...Enhancing the exploration of the Oil Sands... Was interesting work...(The geology)...But thats about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brownstone Posted April 30, 2008 Author Share Posted April 30, 2008 I feel kinda guilty due to the fact I was drilling Core and Plug back abandonment wells up there all winter...Enhacing the exploration of the Oil Sands... Was interesting work...(The geology)...But thats about it... well then, its all your fault.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beedhead Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 well then, its all your fault.. Now I'm guna getter!!! ...LOL... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tako Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Now I'm guna getter!!! ...LOL... Hey man, it's all job security for this kid. Keep on drillin an spillin! It was a joke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castuserraticus Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 This event is nothing compared to natural occurrences. Every few years there's a botulism outbreak at Pakowki Lake (ehpemeral lake) in southern Alta. that kills tens of thousands. Considering the millions of birds that potentially fly through the area I'd say they do a pretty good job of keeping them from the ponds. But that type of successful activity makes for boring headlines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 While I could be led to believe that the company in question has made significant efforts to keep birds off the ponds, when they fail they need to be seriously held to task. It is not a valid argument to compare ducks landing in a toxic tailings pond to a botulism outbreak. Unless I am missing something? However, "Failed because of snow" does not mean they failed to take snow into account. Tires "fail because of nails", electronics "fail because of vibration." Does not mean they did not design for these occurrences, just that it was the failure mechanism. The question is what they failed to take into account, and was it realistically preventable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dryfly Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 THIS IS INDEED UNFORTUNATE, but must be put in perspective. See the chart. BIG killers of birds include windows, high tension wires, pesticides, communications towers and cats. Yes, Muffy, and her kin eat an estimated 500,000,000 dickie birds in North America annually--and even if the estimates are out by 100 percent. The fact is that cats eat a LOT of birds! And of course wind turbines kill birds too. (Yes, those darlings of the eco weenies everywhere... !#$!% turbines!) So while Suzukians are driving their hybrid cars to eco meetings, owning pussy cats and and buying green-friendly (NOT!! ) wind power THEY too are killing birds. Bastards eh, just like you and me and those bad-ass tar sands sonsabitches. It is ALL about perspective. I don't like the bird deaths any more than anyone else here, but it is all about reality of daily life. We all interact in the environment that sometimes (always actually) harms critters. Facts of life. We can hope this event will forces changes in how they operate up there. Now where's my gun? ... there's a cat on the front lawn eating a robin!! You can read about pussy here ... There would be an estimated 500,000 (or well more) domesticated and ferral cats in Alberta that would kill hundred of thousands of birds annually...figures suggest even a few million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Isn't it funny how this almost instantly turned into a Big Oil/GW debate? The company screwed up, hopefully they will fix it and move on. Not every event has to be turned into a oil good/oil bad, gw true/gw false debate, does it? Clive, If we can promise to play nice, I'd love to sit down over a beer to discuss sometimes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dryfly Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 rickr... I can never do that. Har har. I don't drink, BUT would love to chat some day -- on a river somewhere maybe. I think "big oil" is basically "bad" and we all are getting royally screwed by them all of the time. Like right now with the obscene gas prices while THEY make huge multi-billion-dollar profits. Royal Dutch Shell made a mere $9 billion in the first quarter. And I am paying for that bullshit. We all are except a lot of folks make BIG bucks in the patch--well above other industries. So "they" pay at the pumps, but they also get huge salaries. But in this instance, it is grossly unfair to peg the "tar sands" as bad while many sectors of society are all major contributors to (in this case) bird deaths. This case is "acute" and visible. The millions of bird deaths from many other causes is spread around and mostly hidden. We are all implicated indirectly or directly in bird deaths. Whatever the actual (ridiculously high) figure is on bird morts from cats does not matter. Cats kill hundreds of millions of birds annually in North America. But it is not seen, it is spread out and basically ignored. The rev's cat from three houses down skulks around the neighborhood all day long lurking in the bushes--it ain't digging worms. But no one says a thing about these vermin "invasive" pets. ("But it is not MY cat!" Yeah sure honey.) rickr, you are bang on ... this MOST unfortunate event is instantly pegged by eco weenies as "big bad oil" and you are spot on when you say, "The company screwed up, hopefully they will fix it and move on." Yeah, fix it and do everything possible to make sure it does not happen again-- too often anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wongrs Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 perhaps i can share a perspective. while absolute numbers of bird kills by buildings and cats are an important number to put things in perspective, they can also distort reality without the proper context. most importantly to be considered should be migratory flight paths. what say there are a thousand birds left of species X that migrate up and down the east side of the rocky mountains from gulf of mexico up to the NWT. along the way they stop off at the oil sands and get obliterated. the number of a thousand is insignificant in terms of absolute bird kills in north america but would wipe out a single species in a single year. in fact, environmentalists like myself use statistics (such as the ones that dryfly has presented) to re-enforce the effect wind turbines have on bird populations. the stats can be misleading if bird path migrations are not taken into account. luckily the federal government has thought of this and the Environmental Choice Program (EcoLogo certification standard) requires that wind turbines not be placed in the path of migratory bird or bat routes. this only applies to ecologo certified facilities. and while we're on the topic, the Environmental Choice (EcoLogo) program identifies other products such as gasoline, household cleaners, detergent etc that have been assessed to be environmentally friendlier than their competitors. just have to look on the label for the stamp. you can view the stamp here: http://www.ecologo.org/ just the perspective of a hippie-leftwing-treehugging-anarchist-whilst-I-smoke-my-doobie-in-my-hemp-clothing-humming-kum-buy-ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diggler1 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Ya, in alberta some of us work in the patch and thats all we know, but i can say things have improved on the envriomental end of things. But in the U.S just south in the border, Not so much. Pretty much a pit like this on every well i seen. They have a liner...but you know what happens after, fill it with dirt and it goes away. The amount of fresh water ive puped in the ground down there will make you sick....About 4500 m/3 or 4,500,000 litres. Per job, This lease has two wells, 4 jobs per well. Thats 36000 m/3 of fresh water. Thats 36 million 1L bottles. I love my job and is interesting, but it consumes a huge amount of resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diggler1 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 There is 66 tanks in that pic. 500 bbl a peice, or about 80 m/3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wongrs Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 thanks for the pics diggler. can you say how much conventional crude is produced from those 2 wells pictured above that would require 36000 m3 of water? would like to have an understanding of the water to crude trade-off (if you can call it that). don't need production stats; just a ballpark figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castuserraticus Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 Everyone brings up valid points. I did some research and found out that one of the largest contributor to bird deaths is lighted radio towers and their guide wires. There are reported instances of over 10,000 birds being killed in one night at single towers. Larger birds are most vulnerable. There have been significant strides made in positioning wind generators since about 2000. Prior to that no consideration was given for migration routes or proximity to habitat. Have these old wind farms been torn down or refitted to protect birds? My point was the newspapers have jumped on this implying it is the tip of the iceberg and more is to come. Righteous indignation is aroused. There's never anything but bad news. More birds likely die everyday in Calgary from hitting residential windows. Maybe every homeowner should be required to purchase a system that will prevent this and be fined when birds hit their house. The largest source of animal deaths is vehicle collisions. What can we mandate to punish people when they hit a deer, sparrow, or gopher? Everything is "realistically preventable" in media hindsight. Given unlimited $$ I suppose something could be engineered to never fail - until you add people. They're always finding creative new ways to screw up (except you and me Rick). And, oil companies do not set the price of oil. It is set by the market - the buyers. The facts are the world is running out of cheap oil. Don't believe the propaganda of abundant cheap oil from the Arabs. When oil was cheap and easy to find it was found abundantly, cheaply, and easily. The cost of any product is related to today's production/replacement costs not last year's or last decade's. Does anyone want their salary rolled back a decade in today's cost environment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diggler1 Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 thanks for the pics diggler. can you say how much conventional crude is produced from those 2 wells pictured above that would require 36000 m3 of water? would like to have an understanding of the water to crude trade-off (if you can call it that). don't need production stats; just a ballpark figure. Not sure on the bbl per day, but it is the bakken oil formaition, they get paid a premiem on that oil. West texan intermediate 100$ then bakken is 120$...just an example. They do recover some of the h2o back but not all. 50% mabey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffro Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 luckily the federal government has thought of this and the Environmental Choice Program (EcoLogo certification standard) requires that wind turbines not be placed in the path of migratory bird or bat routes. this only applies to ecologo certified facilities. and while we're on the topic, the Environmental Choice (EcoLogo) program identifies other products such as gasoline, household cleaners, detergent etc that have been assessed to be environmentally friendlier than their competitors. just have to look on the label for the stamp. you can view the stamp here: just the perspective of a hippie-leftwing-treehugging-anarchist-whilst-I-smoke-my-doobie-in-my-hemp-clothing-humming-kum-buy-ya Well there is a whole can of worms for a guy like myself. Monitoring windfarms (the pre-construction and post-construction monitoring) is a main part of my daily job. Not placing a windfarm in a migration route is pretty much impossible. I will agree that there are areas that see less migration, and have less of an impact on migrating species, but this cannot be avoided. I don't recognize the Environmental Choice Program, and maybe it just hasn't made it's way west yet, but it is a way of batting a blind eye to what is going actually going on and dupe people into believing they are having zero impact energy provided to them. If you ever make a trip to the crowsnest pass (a major migration route for hoary, silver-haired, big brown bats, as well as huge amounts of other species) you cannot go 360 degrees without seeing a turbine. No federal government stopping anything there....or doing anything about it for that matter. Quick edit....Upon reviewing the certified windfarms (which some I have monitored) none of those are outside of a major migration zone, and some of those have had some really bad messes in regards to mortalities... Sorry if this seems like I'm venting at you wongrs, if it does it is not meant to be. Just anger vented towards the ECP. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beedhead Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 Ya, in alberta some of us work in the patch and thats all we know, but i can say things have improved on the environmental end of things. But in the U.S just south in the border, Not so much. Pretty much a pit like this on every well i seen. They have a liner...but you know what happens after, fill it with dirt and it goes away. The amount of fresh water Ive puped in the ground down there will make you sick....About 4500 m/3 or 4,500,000 litres. Per job, This lease has two wells, 4 jobs per well. Thats 36000 m/3 of fresh water. Thats 36 million 1L bottles. I love my job and is interesting, but it consumes a huge amount of resources. Along with diggler...He has worked in the patch for a few years...And my-self for about 15 years...Things are allot better than they were here in Canada when I started...Company's do there best for the environment(For what they think is good)...But from what I can see first hand, being a Driller for the last 7 years, and getting to ask allot of questions about enviro issues, to These so called Environmentalists that the oil company's hire (TO COVER UP THE .....) ...and I get very few answers....There is allot of cover up....I worked on a rig RIGHT beside Castle river in the past...Seen allot of Crap leitching into the river....All organic material...But still...I did my best to contain it...Let the Enviro people know about it...BUT.... Thats the truth....Ive seen it!!!...And not at all happy about it.... Thats one of the reasons I want to get out of the Patch.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wongrs Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 Well there is a whole can of worms for a guy like myself. Monitoring windfarms (the pre-construction and post-construction monitoring) is a main part of my daily job. Not placing a windfarm in a migration route is pretty much impossible. I will agree that there are areas that see less migration, and have less of an impact on migrating species, but this cannot be avoided. I don't recognize the Environmental Choice Program, and maybe it just hasn't made it's way west yet, but it is a way of batting a blind eye to what is going actually going on and dupe people into believing they are having zero impact energy provided to them. If you ever make a trip to the crowsnest pass (a major migration route for hoary, silver-haired, big brown bats, as well as huge amounts of other species) you cannot go 360 degrees without seeing a turbine. No federal government stopping anything there....or doing anything about it for that matter. Quick edit....Upon reviewing the certified windfarms (which some I have monitored) none of those are outside of a major migration zone, and some of those have had some really bad messes in regards to mortalities... Sorry if this seems like I'm venting at you wongrs, if it does it is not meant to be. Just anger vented towards the ECP. Cheers! good to know jeffro. it's always good to hear a different perspective on things. i work more at a higher policy level so getting on-the-ground insight is valuable. i've analyzed the ECP program certification standard and it discusses citing wind farms to reduce impacts ("Not be detrimental do indigenous or migratory avian species"). i'd also note that ECP certification only shows that it is better than it's competitors in the same category. for example, suncor retail gasoline has the ECP label because in the eyes of EcoLogo they produce gasoline in an environmentally less obtrusive way than their competitors. i'd be interested to hear more about on-the-ground problems with citing wind farms. if have any online articles describing the issues, i'd like to read them. i know there's a lab at UofC that was analyzing bat hits at summerview but i haven't followed any results to date. are you aware of research that shows operations violating ECP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harps Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 Along with diggler...He has worked in the patch for a few years...And my-self for about 15 years...Things are allot better than they were here in Canada when I started...Company's do there best for the environment(For what they think is good)...But from what I can see first hand, being a Driller for the last 7 years, and getting to ask allot of questions about enviro issues, to These so called Environmentalists that the oil company's hire (TO COVER UP THE .....) ...and I get very few answers....There is allot of cover up....I worked on a rig RIGHT beside Castle river in the past...Seen allot of Crap leitching into the river....All organic material...But still...I did my best to contain it...Let the Enviro people know about it...BUT.... Thats the truth....Ive seen it!!!...And not at all happy about it.... Thats one of the reasons I want to get out of the Patch.... And nobody reports it to the proper authorities... To report an environmental emergency (like a spill), please call the joint federal - Alberta Hotline at 1-800-222-6514 (24 hour emergency/complaint line) ... and stay anonomys if you want, but call- it doesn't hurt. On the bird-spill issue... #1 Even though millions of birds die each year, do we really need to add to the number because we're cheap when it comes to the environment? (and why wasn't it reported?) #2 Migratory waterfowl landing on ponds is a much different thing than sparrows hitting windows (from a lifespan and international importance perspective) + plus, I'm sure most of the birds hit by cats in N America are introduced house sparrows and starlings... . And toxic oil slicks are a cruel way to go I'm sure. #3 How many endangered waterfowl use the flyway over the oil sands??? What spp were killed, and how many won't be identified/recovered 'cause they're at the bottom of the pond? And, who reviews windfarms for micro-clime affects!! Changes to wind/snow deposition, drying soil in the area, increasing air turbulance.... Anybody have any links to reports? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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