How To Manage A World Class Fishery In You Backyard

[reevesr1]

This post has almost no chance of staying civil, but I want to try.

 

Something Tako said on the wide ranging discussion on the Reports page got me thinking:

 

How does this website deal with the fact that we have a world class fishery here?

 

This city has 1 million people, many of whom have some money and time on their hands. Running through the middle of it is a river full of fish and more and more people are learning of it. In my mind, this website does nothing (or very, very little) to alert people to the fact that there is a river full of fish. But once they learn of it from other sources, and/or discover fly fishing, they have a good chance of stumbling on this site. And in reading it they will learn that if they pay attention, they will learn how to catch them. I don't think the where is as important. This site will naturally evolve to include very little in the way of visual indicators or descriptions of exactly where the fish are caught. That is almost a guarantee. But as more and more people fish, the whole river will become more crowded. This website can have an impact on etiquette, environmentalism, fish handling practices, etc. But we can't continue to snipe at each other when we see someone doing it in a manner we think is incorrect. You can point out what you think is correct without making the other person feel stupid (and I certainly do not always practice that trait).

 

Anyway, I'm having a hard time expressing myself on this, probably because I don't know what form this website should take, or if it should just stay the way it is and evolve naturally. My fear is that almost invariably, these sites die due to infighting and inability to adapt as they become more popular (or in this case as the River itself becomes more popular)

 

On a personal note, I may have lost a fishing partner over the popularity of this site. Which is a damn shame.

 

Finally, try to be constructive. It would be great if some ideas come out of this before the admins have to shut it down. (the post I mean)

[bigbowtrout]

I like cake

[Tako]

It's a fishing website. These forums have changed the way people talk. It used to be rod and gun clubs and old boys meetings. Now it's this. This is the new campfire, the new saturday night BS session. There's nothing anyone can do to stop it. Whatever effect these forums have on fisheries is happening now. I have tried and will continue trying to bring these forums to the attention of those who are in fisheries management.

 

Don't think for a second only the user group peruses this forum. You can bet that every smart guide in Alberta watches this board, as well as any local managers from SRD or the ACA and a multitude of consulting companies. Sometimes that makes me wince, remembering things I have said, considering I must work in this field. But the pages turn, and hopefully everyone remembers that what's happening, will happen.

 

So if you take that picture of that hawg broonie with the background, and post it on a website like this, where a hundred views an hour is not uncommon on the reports page, expect to see someone else in that run the next day. We all want to catch fish. And you can bet I'm watching and learning A TON about the Bow River, never having stood on its banks. Nothing beats firsthand experience, but boy can you ever soak up a lot of good information reading the reports pages.

 

This is the new information medium. Does is affect fishing pressure and fisheries management? You bet your boots it does.

 

Tako out...

[reevesr1]

I like cake

Thanks Chris.

 

Edit:

Let me clarify what I'm asking:

 

Is this board contributing to the number of fishermen in Calgary (in my mind it contributes not so much to the number of fishermen, but to their success, which will keep them coming back-so indirectly it does contribute to numbers)? If so, is that in itself a bad thing? Aren't we supposed to promote the thing we love?

 

How can we better promote the activity? Some things to talk about (or at least I think)

1. Moving through the runs(I would add this could be difficult in winter due to limited runs which hold fish. I would add "invite other fishermen in")

2. Should we include locations, other than generalities, in a fishing post? I think the post should be only to inform how, not where. But I know not everyone feels the same.

 

This river will continue to get more crowded regardless of how this site evolves. But I think this site could help in that evolution but teaching etiquette, handling, etc.

 

Sorry if this is all too touchy feely!!

[Guest Sundancefisher]

I think teaching etiquette and humane treatment of fish is a great way to move and great discussion points.

 

We must however take a step back and approach it from the average persons perspective and not be to specific unless we explain the issue well. There are different etiquettes for large river fishing all the way down to small creek fishing and onto lake fishing.

 

The Bow River is heading towards the shoulder to shoulder fishermen era as seen by more and more guys out flailing the waters. No one for instance can expect themselves to have a pool all to themselves. That being said a polite introduction can be applied by the new arrivals. I have seen first hand though people that feel that they "own" a large pool. On a smaller pool like the Crowsnest or upper Oldman, there could be grounds to say "this pool ain't big enough for the two of us". Jumping up one pool on a small creek may be considered rude by someone who has hiked in. Giving more room may be more reasonable.

 

Very interesting topic none the less. Discussing specific scenarios may be beneficial to guage where everyone's heads are at.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[Tako]

I think you guys need to take a long look at historic angler numbers and the demographic of people moving to Calgary. I don't think your angler numbers are going to increase much. BC's are falling, and the gov't is trying to increase them. I think you'll find that the 'new' Calgary demographic is not that of a sportsman. Sure, with growth, there is growth in other things, inevitably. But I think a long look at historic angler numbers wil answer your questions regarding growth.

 

Am I out to lunch?

[reevesr1]

I think you guys need to take a long look at historic angler numbers and the demographic of people moving to Calgary. I don't think your angler numbers are going to increase much. BC's are falling, and the gov't is trying to increase them. I think you'll find that the 'new' Calgary demographic is not that of a sportsman. Sure, with growth, there is growth in other things, inevitably. But I think a long look at historic angler numbers wil answer your questions regarding growth.

 

Am I out to lunch?

 

It is still, at the end of the day, an oilfield town. Many (certainly not all, but enough) of the people moving here spent some time in the oil patch, and as such, tend to be outdoorsy types. So I would expect the increasing population numbers to include a significant portion of people inclined to take up fishing here. But I base that on deduction, not fact. I fully realize I could be the one out to lunch.

[alhuger]

How can we better promote the activity? Some things to talk about (or at least I think)

1. Moving through the runs(I would add this could be difficult in winter due to limited runs which hold fish. I would add "invite other fishermen in")

2. Should we include locations, other than generalities, in a fishing post? I think the post should be only to inform how, not where. But I know not everyone feels the same.

 

This river will continue to get more crowded regardless of how this site evolves. But I think this site could help in that evolution but teaching etiquette, handling, etc.

 

Sorry if this is all too touchy feely!!

 

Hey Rick,

 

As for question 2, I do not think people should post locations in a picture post for a couple of reasons. First, you are guaranteed to generate more pressure on the location, in some cases a tremendous amount. Also, you'll find that the crowding lends itself to combat fishing. I imagine you've seen rivers in BC (or anywhere) during a salmon run, they can suck pretty bad. All of us benefit from anglers being more spread out.

 

Having said that, I would not know where to fish on the river without being introduced to water by friends which in some cases who I have met here. I am all for direct personal interaction, it helps grow our sport and build relationships.

 

-al

[Tako]

It is still, at the end of the day, an oilfield town. Many (certainly not all, but enough) of the people moving here spent some time in the oil patch, and as such, tend to be outdoorsy types. So I would expect the increasing population numbers to include a significant portion of people inclined to take up fishing here. But I base that on deduction, not fact. I fully realize I could be the one out to lunch.

 

I'm more asking than saying myself. I know little about it. But if it follows a similar trend in population growth as the rest of Canada, you won't be experience a growth in angling license sales alongside it. My hypothesis anyway. Now if the p value of the ttest is less than .05, we fail to accept the null hypothesis and you're right.

 

GET ME OUT OF HERE.

[Tako]

Hey Rick,

 

As for question 2, I do not think people should post locations in a picture post for a couple of reasons. First, you are guaranteed to generate more pressure on the location, in some cases a tremendous amount. Also, you'll find that the crowding lends itself to combat fishing. I imagine you've seen rivers in BC (or anywhere) during a salmon run, they can suck pretty bad. All of us benefit from anglers being more spread out.

 

Having said that, I would not know where to fish on the river without being introduced to water by friends which in some cases who I have met here. I am all for direct personal interaction, it helps grow our sport and build relationships.

 

-al

 

Ummmm Al, you might not want to compare the Bow to the Fraser snag (floss) fest for sockeye. I *think* they're two very different entities!

[alhuger]

It is still, at the end of the day, an oilfield town. Many (certainly not all, but enough) of the people moving here spent some time in the oil patch, and as such, tend to be outdoorsy types. So I would expect the increasing population numbers to include a significant portion of people inclined to take up fishing here. But I base that on deduction, not fact. I fully realize I could be the one out to lunch.

 

Rick,

 

Statscan says that last year was a record in migration for Canadians moving out of their home province for work. The vast majority of people moving, some 500,000, moved west. As you might guess Alberta was home to many of these folks. Care to guess which city in Alberta saw the most people moving in (not counting Fort Mac)? I think Tako has a point for the province as a whole but Calgary definitely is growing. However in BC where I fish mostly I just got a government report on the number of anglers on my local water last year in addition to the number of fish caught. I was floored, I thought the number of anglers had increased when if fact it has dropped although only slightly.

 

al

[alhuger]

Ummmm Al, you might not want to compare the Bow to the Fraser snag (floss) fest for sockeye. I *think* they're two very different entities!

 

I would agree but the point I was trying to make was that few people like fishing shoulder to shoulder. It's not fun.

[lonefisher]

I think we have simply had a warm winter or atleast the past couple months have been pretty nice most of the time...... nice weather means more people fishing. In about a month numerous other waters are gonna open up and the pressure on the bow will go down a bit...... right now popular opinion would say that theres 2 pieces of river in the province that are fishable..... a chunk of the lower bow and a chunk of the crow...... come spring this will go up by 10x and summer 100x if not more....... everybody just needs to relax fish what they can for now and once summer comes everyone can spread out and have some more space...... people are also talkin about fishing "spots" or "pools"........ in my minimal experience on the lower bow in the winter (specially the late winter) you can fish some of the water in between the wintering holes and runs in fact quite a bit...... I rarely walk past these intermediate waters i will usually drift a few casts through as I work down or up looking for the really productive looking water...... I don't fish the lower as much as many of you but I often find that the average size of the fish I catch in these mediocre looking stretchs is larger then from the established pools. Everytime I hit fish creek I catch fish in places everyone else I see just ignores....... I may not catch as many as someone who lives on a uber productive run or hole but I fish them as well if they are not occupied and usually do pretty well....... I think theres lots of water out there and and if a persons willing to properly work the entire river and cover a bit of ground they will catch fish regardless of the number of people fishing "the good spots". I am not being critical I will sit and fish a productive hole if its empty as well but if its not keep working the other water you may not tag as many but is it really a numbers game?

[Tako]

Rick,

 

Statscan says that last year was a record in migration for Canadians moving out of their home province for work. The vast majority of people moving, some 500,000, moved west. As you might guess Alberta was home to many of these folks. Care to guess which city in Alberta saw the most people moving in (not counting Fort Mac)? I think Tako has a point for the province as a whole but Calgary definitely is growing. However in BC where I fish mostly I just got a government report on the number of anglers on my local water last year in addition to the number of fish caught. I was floored, I thought the number of anglers had increased when if fact it has dropped although only slightly.

 

al

 

Al, the reason for this is likely due to forums like this. FlyBC.ca has a tendency to concentrate anglers on particular waterbodies, irrelevant of how well the BC boyz thing they are hiding their secret spots. Really, there isn't whole lot of room to fish in the southern interior. Also, it appears LICENSE SALES have gone down. I can't really convert that to a decrease in angler numbers though, as I myself believe there are more 'anglers' (unlicensed poachers) on the water. Probably due to BC's ever increasing license fees, which I personally consider to be fair. Money to keep a good thing good has to come from somewhere.

[alhuger]

Al, the reason for this is likely due to forums like this. FlyBC.ca has a tendency to concentrate anglers on particular waterbodies, irrelevant of how well the BC boyz thing they are hiding their secret spots. Really, there isn't whole lot of room to fish in the southern interior. Also, it appears LICENSE SALES have gone down. I can't really convert that to a decrease in angler numbers though, as I myself believe there are more 'anglers' (unlicensed poachers) on the water. Probably due to BC's ever increasing license fees, which I personally consider to be fair. Money to keep a good thing good has to come from somewhere.

 

Well, it's also likely directly related to gas prices actually. I fish the shuswap, it has drops in boat traffic (which you generally need to fish unless you just hit the river mouths) when the price of gas rises. But I'm sure concentrating folks up at white and the many. many other local lakes likely helps matters. We'll see if the fishing drops further now with perch in adams lake.

[headscan]

I agree with LoneFisher. The fishable stretches of water right now are limited, so most people are concentrated in a few sections. Once the weather warms up and the drift and pontoon boats come out and other rivers open people will spread out more. I usually only fish the Bow after work in the summer and head elsewhere on the weekends. There are probably also more people fishing in the winter now and this board has likely influenced that. I used to end my season in late September or early October until I saw people here were still fishing productively in December and January. I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing, though. With the higher concentration of people in a few stretches I've had the opportunity to meet and fish with some really great people, most of them from this site. Sure there have also been one or two bad experiences because of the crowding, but you can get those at any time of the year sometimes even in "remote" areas.

 

Like Al says, photo posts and locations can increase the pressure on an area. We experienced that first hand when we were heading to a certain spot. The day before someone had posted pictures here and there was an easily identifiable landmark in the background. Sure enough, the next day that area was crowded so we bypassed it. I wouldn't chastise anyone for posting a picture like that either, though. The person taking the pic probably didn't think about it at the time since the objective was probably to get the pic taken and get the fish back in the water without worrying about "posing" it. It wasn't exactly some super top secret location either.

 

Thankfully we're still a long way away from the shoulder to shoulder fishing on some rivers. I was amazed to learn that out west there are pools during salmon and steelhead runs that people wait in line to fish. I believe the rule is cast, take two steps, cast, etc. until you reach the bottom of the pool then get back in line to repeat the procedure. The Bow just seems like it has more people fishing it now than 10 years ago. Until it gets to the point where people are lined up I wouldn't call it overcrowded.

[admin]

2. Should we include locations, other than generalities, in a fishing post? I think the post should be only to inform how, not where. But I know not everyone feels the same.

 

I don't think you should be disclosing specific locations. I mean, you can use some discretion, but telling people you caught x number of fish, and including GPS coords and such just makes your spot a crowded one. Back when I lived in Edmonton, we used to post our trips in more detail and watched as our quiet spots turned into crowded waters. Even the newspaper columnists picked up on our trips and started publishing the what and where.

 

With the amount of growth the city sees, it's inevitable that the number of people on the water will grow. With that, I think it's important to have an increased presence of CO's that can check for licenses and limits etc.

 

One big comment I have got from people who come from locations with established etiquette comment on the lack of it on Alberta streams. I hear it on here all the time as well. People crowding out other anglers, crossing lines etc... It makes for a frustrating experience when it doesn't have to. I don't recall if there is anything written in the regs but there should be.

[ogilvie]

A great thread for sure.Every community on this planet that has a world class fishery in it's back yard has the same questions..but thats the point! I grew up on the East Coast fishing for Atlantic Salmon ,considered to be a rich man's sport of course.Rich men simply bought beats! A common theme with Atlantic fisheries! However,fishing etiquet and crowding have worked extremely well together,in fact ,once you are positioned within the rotation of Fly Fishers ,they all but disappear and once again the quest is even more intense,and intuitive.

I have been blasted by the old farts club for letting people know that we have a world class fishery,for Salmon, off the beaches around Nile Creek/Qualicum Beach. In 1997 we began a program of enhancement so we could once again fly fish for Pink and Coho Salmon ,for all to enjoy. The interpretation of "ALL" seems to have somewhat been slimed down. Many of these old farts still ,and thankfully,continue to be part of the enhancement programs. But,we rarely see them on the beaches anymore,instead,they have found their "SECRET" spots to congregate. We will adapt,and these forums and sites will lead the way to better opportunities for all fishers and not just fly flingers.

During the past 5 or 6 years the membership numbers of fly fishing clubs abd such groups have fallen to ,in some minds,alarming numbers. I,for one,think differently;and have voiced this very loudly. We must embrace whats in front of us and really think outside the envelope.

AS someone mentioned,Fisheries people must read these sites...well they do to a degree. And these sites are very helpful,but also are not being considered enough yet to make any policy change. At this time, individuals are too ananomous. This will perpetuate a broader and less focused policy approach for the many of us who think differently.

Here in BC we are now innundated with with a major attack on our many smaller watersheds with considerations for IPPs(Independent Power Projects)...not only will this increase certain individuals purses via stocks and investments but in context is good for the consumption of Hydro. But to we fish and outdoors type people it is a rape of the wilderness and a killer of watersheds...all the while the government of the day says it is a good and safe thing for we mere mortals to undertake! Public forums like these are helping to a degree but toooo annoymous .

 

Will the fish ever run out?.......not likely...fishers...likely!

[KnotLikely]

Is this board contributing to the number of fisherman in Calgary? I think it has Rick. Sure the population has increased, but the number of anglers that I see on the banks where we often run into each other has increased disproportionately over the past year. I've been walking or fishing these banks for about 10 years, and would rarely see another angler there, especially in the winter. Now, if we get a nice day during the winter you can guarantee that the productive runs are taken, and not just on weekends. Many authors would talk about how the Bow is not good learning water, but with the wealth of knowledge and posted locations on here, success to new anglers is coming quicker, the angler who would have given up because of failure or mediocre results in the past is not, because he or she is achieving that early success, not necessarily a bad thing, but it is increasing numbers, and I think this board has a lot to do with it.

 

Although this board may have contributed to the increase in number of anglers, I think for the most part it's done a great job of educating people on river etiquette. If I run into another angler, and if he or she is a member of this board, I would find it hard to believe that they wouldn't ask if I'm heading up or down, and if I don't mind that they skip ahead, or just move up or down to some other water, though often, you'll end up inviting them to fish the same run, and having a good BS session together, and learning from each other. That said with the increased numbers of anglers, you're also more likely to run into an a$$hat, many of whom use this board for the wealth of information that's on it.

 

I've voiced my feelings on posting locations before, and have taken a bit of heat and mocking for it. Posting locations is especially relevant in the winter when fish and therefore anglers concentrate in certain locations so while the Bow is big water with plenty of locations, during the winter, it is like a collection of many small streams and should be treated with the same respect you would a fragile creek. I think you need to pay your dues, but when you see the same backgrounds in shots time after time, it doesn't take long before you go back to that spot and see there are 3 guys already there. If you're an angler who only has a few hours to get out and get some fishing in during the week, pretty good chance you're going to the spot in the photo, where guys were pulling out 20+ inch rainbows and browns all day on SJW's and size 18 prince nymphs fished on a 6 ft straight flourocarbon leader to a swivel with a single BB split shot....can't really blame the guy for making the most of the short time he has available to him.

 

There's also a changing demographic, it's not just the 30 + married guy with 2 kids and an 8 -5 job that can only get away for a few hours on the weekend. Just take a look on the reports, and you'll see many anglers out weekdays when most of us shmucks are caged in our offices. The demographic is also getting younger, as you can see by the poll on student anglers. So not only are there more anglers because of migration, the sport and this board is also attracting a broader demographic.

 

Good or bad I don't know, but this board has definitely had an affect, and with that a responsibility to protect the resource that it is promoting, which I think it has all intentions of doing, and it has shown through it's actions i.e. river clean up, education on fish handling, encouraging the reporting of poachers etc.

 

Increased numbers are here to stay and I'm sure will only get worse, so be prepared to do a little extra walking or driving and explore some new water.

[Tako]

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It ain't rocket science folks

[reevesr1]

Knotlikely,

I don't disagree with you. So let's assume that we all stop posting any reference to location, and clean up our pictures. The reports would still exist, anyone with half a brain will know it has to be somewhere between the weir and say Policemans (this time of year). If you want to find fish, all you have to do then is spend a small amount of time on the water and prospect the same way many used to do it in the days before the internet (at least where I'm from), by looking for bent rods. I know of a yellow one that is bent quite often (except when I'm around you for some reason!!)

 

Lots of people combined with limited fishing space guarantee some crowding, doesn't it? (and I agree with what many have said, crowding is a relative term when discussing the Bow in Calgary).

[headscan]

I think you need to pay your dues

 

This is something I hear a lot. How do you define whether or not someone has paid their dues though, especially on an (relatively) anonymous forum?

[ogilvie]

One would expect crowding near a city of One Million...especially on a Trout River,that has fish,designed for just that! The same conditions apply to Hog Town...3 million crazies,all fishing the Grand,Credit,Willmot,16Mile,Ganny,Notty,Beaver,Saugeen,and others. wisely,the ministeries of Ontario,New York,Michigan<Illinois,Indianna have invested heavily in stocking the great lakes ...with I might add a world class result.

I know,we can't compare Hog Town with Cow Town................really??!

I have many times joined in on the Stamp River for Sockeye fishing with gear and occasionally on the fly...being a fly fisher at heart was at first a real problem for me. I didn't like lineing fish so I made my gear lighter and lines too weak...what I ended up doing was hooking more fish but injuring more because of the light set-up. So,what I did was to make a change to hook fewer fish but to do it in a more skilled way,within the parameters of the status quo. I could stand shoulder to shoulder within a group of 30 crazed fishers,hook more fish than the average and disturb the line(fishers) more that the average,,,and lose more fish than the average...still. However, the point is... the experience is what counts...for the fly fisher usually...

Just ask a serious Steelheader , Permit Fisher,Musky,other great game fishers,....especially a fly fisher, many days with only the anticipation of an encounter. Can you imagine standing in the rotation at Quarryville New Brunswick,25 strong,like minded fly flingers,all after the same thing,a constant rotation,and you hook the fish??

[Teck71]

Figured I would chime in on this,

 

1. I don't think this board increases the number of fishers on the river, anyone on this site finds it because thay looked for it, meaning they were already thinking of fishing the Bow. but I do think it has increased the number of flyfishers on the bow. when I found the site I was just looking for info on fishing in Alberta and around Calgary. it was the site that pushed me to flyfishing.

 

2. not publically, we shouldn't.

I ask about rivers but don't look for specific locations, let face it if I wanted fish handed to me there are plenty of stores out there, only to happy to do it. I fish for the exploration, for the learning, and experience. If it was made easy chances are I would like it so much.

 

3. Yes we owe it to ourselves to foster a sense of care for our rivers and our sport on this site. and that is done here on the forum and on the river. a new angler is stugggling help him, needs a smoke lend it asks what they are hitting on tell them (espeacially if it is a bearded specticled dude in a Mossy Oak hat).

 

Just my.02

Teck

[KnotLikely]

I used to get upset when I saw posts with pics that clearly would show a location. It's a reality, and it's not going to change. I choose not to do it, and that's all I can do about it. I share my favorite runs with others, and others have shared theirs with me. I've met guys like you Rick, and others that I'd be happy to share water with any day. I also have given in to the fact that on many days those runs will be taken, and that they will not be offered and I'll be hiking to some place new, or a place where I know there are fish, but maybe not as big, or maybe not as many.

 

... is it really a numbers game?

 

 

This is something I hear a lot. How do you define whether or not someone has paid their dues though, especially on an (relatively) anonymous forum?

...You can't, but I know I'm more likely to help the guy who asks a few questions like "I'm doing this and I've tried that, and not getting into any fish, can you take a look at my setup?" than a guy who's posting on here looking for directions to whatever the latest hot spot is.