Red Deer R Flow Rates - Persepctive For You Bow R Fishermen

[DaveJensen]

http://environment.alberta.ca/apps/basins/DisplayData.aspx?Type=Figure&BasinID=7&DataType=1&StationID=RREDRED

This is to help the southern folks keep perspective on your Bow R flow rates.

The river in town started coming up a couple of days ago.

You see, the weather Network and Env Canada are forecasting an inch of rain out west.

So, in preparation for what the Dam Man is saying the Forestry Experts are predicting for 800m3sec (the call was made and that is real) to come into the reservoir this weekend, which would be much higher than most annual run off high water events in June, the Dam Man took the precautious step of opening up the dam gates early.

A very pro-active approach to something that most likely will not occur to the level their experts are predicting, lest they know something Env Canada and the Weather Net know, but have been wrong almost every other time the past decade this time of the year.

 

And in the mean time they took a river that was finally fishable for a week or two (the first time since the flood back in June - it's been a very muddy year) and took it back to runoff levels and clarity.

 

And that is how our local Dam Man deals with Public Relations: we get way premature runoff level dam releases based on predictions/projections that fall outside of outlandish, while the sun is shining during the hottest, driest spell of the summer.

 

 

[WyomingGeorge]

An inch of rain on powder-dry, cracked ground such as I'm seeing daily northwest of Calgary would result in virtually zero run-off, especially with all the ponds, potholes and tiny creeks low.

 

The land is able to absorb and store a considerable amount of water.

 

If the rain is very intense, there may be a small amount of runoff lasting hours rather than days, hardly enough to fill a reservoir.

 

Very odd on one level, but in keeping with today's religion of risk management, in which the mania of risk avoidance creates damaging consequences for others.

[DaveJensen]

The res if at capacity right now, but can we at least wait to see what actually happens?

[bcubed]

I'm confused how this will keep perspective for us "southern folk". The Red Deer is exclusive to poor dam management?

 

 

I think not....

[DaveJensen]

I've seen some commentary about 'how bad things are' with the Bow flow mgt and - while it could be improved certainly - it's not even in the same stratosphere as how badly things are run up this way. At least you have the second dam that tempers things for flow. And be thankful that you've had vis above 18" most of the season as we only got that a couple weeks back. Just imagine the Bow being jacked to 400+ m3sec today just because there's some light rain in the forecast, and having that happen pretty much every time it rains all summer. It could be a lot worse down there. Thankfully there will be some discussion about this in the relatively near future on the RDR.

[bcubed]

18" most of the season? I guess those first 2 weeks of July were my imagination. Guess when you have a lake resort to go guide on, you don't notice the clarity of the rivers that are on a different stratosphere than your own.

 

"Just imagine the Bow being jacked to 400+ m3sec today just because there's some light rain in the forecast, and having that happen pretty much every time it rains all summer. It could be a lot worse down there"

While it may not hit 400 (which it did last year after that stupidity at Spray), its a given that the river will blow out for at least 12 hours if there's a good thunderstorm anywhere in town...

 

Rather then playing the 'who has it worse game', perhaps there should be more discussion about dam management in general in Alberta...Really, get one guy that likes fishing below the Three Rivers Dam, and they win that fight anyway.. At least be discussion on flows in the relative near future on the RDR... Fairly apparent in the recent world that fish don't come anywhere near the top when people are thinking flood risk.

[DaveJensen]

Cube, I'm at a disadvantage as I don't know who you are, nor why you are coming at me as you are, but that's ok.

I've been home almost all of the summer (think staff) save for 4 weeks in June and a couple of weekend ride ins to Fortress Lake, so I've pretty much been on top of things all summer, waiting to fish the river. It has had very scant opportunity lest you love pounding streamers all day for 0 to 3 or 4 browns thanks to the conditions.

Our versions of visibility apparently are quite different but, alas, no matter how you look at it, the difference between the Bow & RDR are night and day this season, as many seasons are, quite often thanks to dam management of which things are far better on the Bow as compared to the RDR.

There needs to be discussion on the level that you suggest, which is why the RDR Fisheries Mgt Committee is going to address that; which is also why other dams are coming into question behind the scenes as well.

Of bigger point, my intention is to troll (my word which might mean something else to someone else, intended in a positive light) this forum to keep the issue in front of anglers as, when the time comes to put the pressure on to dam controllers, we can get the needed public support to change the way things are managed. Hopefully someone on the Bow R front takes up the issue should it need addressing as much as the RDR does.

[DudeRainbowLove]

.

A very pro-active approach to something that most likely will not occur to the level their experts are predicting

 

 

Dam if you do Dam if you don't

[albertatrout]

18" most of the season? I guess those first 2 weeks of July were my imagination. Guess when you have a lake resort to go guide on, you don't notice the clarity of the rivers that are on a different stratosphere than your own.

 

"Just imagine the Bow being jacked to 400+ m3sec today just because there's some light rain in the forecast, and having that happen pretty much every time it rains all summer. It could be a lot worse down there"

While it may not hit 400 (which it did last year after that stupidity at Spray), its a given that the river will blow out for at least 12 hours if there's a good thunderstorm anywhere in town...

 

Rather then playing the 'who has it worse game', perhaps there should be more discussion about dam management in general in Alberta...Really, get one guy that likes fishing below the Three Rivers Dam, and they win that fight anyway.. At least be discussion on flows in the relative near future on the RDR... Fairly apparent in the recent world that fish don't come anywhere near the top when people are thinking flood risk.

 

The Oldman has been absolutely brutal flow wise this year especially downstream of the dam! I drive across the Red Deer, Bow, and Oldman every week or two and have noticed fluctuating flows across the board. The Bow downstream of Carseland has only looked reasonable on a couple drives all summer, the Oldman is finally looking acceptable as of last week (still more like mid July flows but I cant be too picky). The Red Deer was looking great for a few weeks there but seems to be fluctuating more than normal as well, though that's kind of been the norm since the last big flood. I only see it getting worse after this years flooding, I think twitchy dam release fingers are here to stay and tail water fisheries will pay. Fingers crossed the resiliency of trout can buffer further negative consequences. Hope the fish get some consideration in future dam control plans but I'm not that optimistic. On the bright side, at least the sturgeon seem to be happy down on the Oldman, they seem to be showing up thicker and thicker after each high water event.

[Muffin]

The Oldman has been absolutely brutal flow wise this year especially downstream of the dam! I drive across the Red Deer, Bow, and Oldman every week or two and have noticed fluctuating flows across the board. The Bow downstream of Carseland has only looked reasonable on a couple drives all summer, the Oldman is finally looking acceptable as of last week (still more like mid July flows but I cant be too picky). The Red Deer was looking great for a few weeks there but seems to be fluctuating more than normal as well, though that's kind of been the norm since the last big flood. I only see it getting worse after this years flooding, I think twitchy dam release fingers are here to stay and tail water fisheries will pay. Fingers crossed the resiliency of trout can buffer further negative consequences. Hope the fish get some consideration in future dam control plans but I'm not that optimistic. On the bright side, at least the sturgeon seem to be happy down on the Oldman, they seem to be showing up thicker and thicker after each high water event.

Well with those sturgeon you live through a couple of geological ERA's and you are bound to have some resiliency.

[DaveJensen]

As a follow up - while the Env / W Net forecasts remain the same, apparently the forestry model caught up to the others. All the way to 203 then 153m3sec, 6 hrs later as of right now, suspect it'll continue to drop.

http://environment.alberta.ca/apps/basins/DisplayData.aspx?Type=Table&BasinID=7&DataType=1&StationID=RREDRED

They've been doing this since before I began fishing it in the mid-90s, so it isn't a new phenomenon. Last summer they twice did this and it didn't even rain out west.

 

And for anyone who wonders why I get excited about the RDR, it's not the RDR I'm excited about. It's about process, ramifications, applicability to other waters, to ensure we have framework to ensure healthy waters and fisheries in the future... and the wee streams within the RDR watershed and the NSR watershed if we can establish process here. That's the point. To tie it all together.

[Weedy1]

You would think when they build and manage a dam the reservoir would not be required to be kept at a full level going into the winter months. They seem to like to ride the full line on the Red Deer. Probably makes for the best jet boating conditions.

 

http://www.environment.alberta.ca/apps/basins/DisplayData.aspx?Type=Figure&BasinID=7&DataType=3&StationID=RDICRES

[LastBoyScout]

They seem to run as full as possible on the Oldman as well, something about providing the best possible pressure for privately run power generator in the diversion tunnel. Further to that I have never seen a precautionary release there, in fact quite the contrary. In June huge rain was forecast for the south when the reservoir was near full, they held the flows steady, the first inch fell in the Pincher Creek area and still nothing by the time the second inch fell they had grudgingly loosened up to 500 m3 then with in a few hours we were over 2400 when the monitoring station washed away. Precautionary releases, I wish.

[scel]

As a follow up - while the Env / W Net forecasts remain the same, apparently the forestry model caught up to the others. All the way to 203 then 153m3sec, 6 hrs later as of right now, suspect it'll continue to drop.

http://environment.alberta.ca/apps/basins/DisplayData.aspx?Type=Table&BasinID=7&DataType=1&StationID=RREDRED

They've been doing this since before I began fishing it in the mid-90s, so it isn't a new phenomenon. Last summer they twice did this and it didn't even rain out west.

 

And for anyone who wonders why I get excited about the RDR, it's not the RDR I'm excited about. It's about process, ramifications, applicability to other waters, to ensure we have framework to ensure healthy waters and fisheries in the future... and the wee streams within the RDR watershed and the NSR watershed if we can establish process here. That's the point. To tie it all together.

 

 

I fished the RDR today near the dam. My friend and I decided to be nostaligic and fish for whites.

In 4 hours, between the 2 of us we easily caught 40 (and 1 little brown). Considering the crappy condition of the river (it was still high for this time of year, and less than 75cm visibility), it was surprising. Now I know that it is nothing like my youth, but the river seems to be in fine shape---or at least in better shape than the last few years. Most of the fish were small (indicative of a recovering population), but all the fish were healthy and incredibly active. There was one fish that my friend and I was sure was a brown. it screamed out line, and jumped twice. But I digress...

 

The RDR is a special environment. With a little love and attention, it could be something truly amazing.

 

My question is this: What are the consequences of altering the flow so radically?

I guess I just have a hard time being concerned about human induced flow rates when one considers how artificial the dam is in the first place. I am certainly willing to change my (relatively uninformed) opinion.

[DaveJensen]

http://environment.alberta.ca/apps/basins/DisplayData.aspx?Type=Figure&BasinID=7&DataType=1&StationID=RREDRED

From 40 to 205 for a few hot, sunny days, to 29m3sec. I guess the early fall flood warning has been lifted.

It is a short, shallow reservoir with a relatively sizeable drainage upstream. The dam can reach capacity early in the year and flow rates are supposed to mimic natural flows of the upper river. On that level, I'm all for dam releases that are tapered and resemble the natural flow. The trouble is that the dam man does mass wave releases when they come and also has its own forest moisture model that does some bizarre modeling, and I'm not sure if it accounts for late season deep forest soil moisture codes, which are distinctly different than those of June.

Such an event won't do much to the fish this time of the year, lest it occur a few weeks from now during the spawn. But such a release seriously hampers anyone's ability to fish through the entire drainage when levels are raised so high the fish have to adjust (except for those in the biggest pools as you likely were fishing). Given the year we've had, seeing this was a tough go.

The real damaging events to the fish populations are the floods as experienced this June. Given how ripped/exposed the gravel banks again became after this year's flood, any random, wild dam opening as was just done will knock down in stream visibility long past the high water event.

The Red Deer tailwater will always be a marginal, only regionally significant brown trout stream that has the potential to offer world class fishing in short spurts. Those that spent considerable time on it before the '05 flood know that it was easily on par with world class destinations. I doubt we'll see it get back to that level and remain there for very long again, but the possibilities of something special are always there.