What Do You Do ?

[Swede]

What do you guys do when you go to one of your favorite spots and there's quadders running up and down the river?

 

So me and the wife are rigging up one of the guys riding quads says "Oh your going fishing. well don't get run over. So I tell him there's no quads allowed where am going. So there's six quads that head down to the river before us, four of them proceed to run right down the middle of the river headed downstream. well am still up top of the canyon watching them but cant really catch them to say anything. We head down and are going to fIsh upstream we round the first corner and heres 2 quadders rigging up to fish.

 

They ask me how far are you going upstream, I say "well alot farther than you than proceed to tell them they aren't allowed to quad down here and they know it. Anyways I wasn't to nice and told them I have a picture of your plates and if I see you past this point all see you in court.

 

Just pisses me off to know end that people have to make me be a prick and I am. why should I mince words when your forcing my hand. yes one day four young fellows might pound the piss out of me or trash my truck. Don't really care not going to sit back and watch this place get trashed too.

[nick]

I haven't read the officially written law, but as I was browsing an Alberta Outdoorsmen mag a couple months ago, one article stated that we now have a law that makes it illegal to drive "wheeled and tracked vehicles" in/on the bed or shore of a lake or stream in Alberta, with fines up to $10 000. Within reason, I'd take pictures, try to include some with license plates, then call RAP. Again, being sure its safe to do so. Leave the confrontation at home, and let the authorities deal with it.

 

Unfortunate, but common, and I, over the last several years, have just stopped fishing in areas with high OHV numbers, because I know how my mood will be altered, and I don't go fishing to experience that.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Nick

[Flytyer]

I haven't read the officially written law, but as I was browsing an Alberta Outdoorsmen mag a couple months ago, one article stated that we now have a law that makes it illegal to drive "wheeled and tracked vehicles" in/on the bed or shore of a lake or stream in Alberta, with fines up to $10 000. Within reason, I'd take pictures, try to include some with license plates, then call RAP. Again, being sure its safe to do so. Leave the confrontation at home, and let the authorities deal with it.

 

Unfortunate, but common, and I, over the last several years, have just stopped fishing in areas with high OHV numbers, because I know how my mood will be altered, and I don't go fishing to experience that.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Nick

 

X2 One question though is calling RAP the only option or could the RCMP handle cases like this as well?

 

[Guest NamasteMushroom]

I wish I could develop a lethal pathogen that specifically targets white trash.

[cheeler]

There have been some recent convictions off of pictures and video taken - RAP deals with poachers and will probably contact the right people, but you can go straight to the RCMP or a local CO if you have their number. Obviously the more information the better - video of their tracking through the river, license plate/operator photos, but also the plates of the vehicles and trailers they used to get there. Just be discrete when collecting it.

[Harps]

Call DFO and complain, too (despite the uselessness of that action, it still sends a message).

 

As of July, temporary changes to the Fisheries Act make any activity that harms habitat illegal!!! That means quading can be stopped by the fishery officers and charges can be laid by the public (like Martha Kostuch did in Alberta) or by federal crown prosecutors.

It may also mean that mis-operation of dams could be complained about to teh minister...

Info at: http://www.blakes.com/english/view_bulletin.asp?ID=5497 or http://blakesfiles.com/pub/English/environ...l_2012/Fish.pdf

 

DFO offices in Alberta:

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/regions/central/h...dfo-mpo-eng.htm

But make sure you also email the DFO Minister:

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Contact-eng.htm#3

 

 

I'd also call SRD (RAP line) and complain.

[adams]

You need to go to the top to get anything done.

 

I have contacted the Minister of SRD (Dianne McQueen) in the past about these same types of issues. Of course I got the standard lip service in return, but numbers speak to to politicians as they know each is a vote so I urge others to add their voices. The problem with simply trying to go somewhere else to fish is that we are running out of "else's" to go to. Alberta is quickly becoming one big motocross track with absolutely no limits or law enforcement imposed on these people. Not all of them disrepect the environment, but a large number of them do as it witnessed by the trash left around their campsites and the ripped-up countryside. I talked to a CO who told me it is not illegal for them to cross any stream as long as they go directly across. That law is obviously far too lax and virtually unenforceable, which means it's open season.

 

Here's what I urged the Minister to do:

 

(1) Designate certain areas (preferably those areas they have already ruined) as ATV/Motocross bike areas and let them have at them. The rest of the province would be off-limits to the motocross crowd.

 

(2) Put officers on ATVs to patrol the off-limit areas and give them the mandate to clean this up by firm enforcement of the law. Without officers on ATVs it is virtually impossible to catch these guys. Other provinces have patrols of officers in the woods every single day and they hand out tickets and confiscate property (NB for example).

 

I was on the Livingstone lately and was shocked to see that it was overrun with bikes too. They were crossing streams, ripping up the countryside and then washing their bikes in the river afterwards. At night there were fireworks (powerful fireworks that could easily set a fire) and shotguns going off all over the place. The next day while walking through some of these ATV/motocross camps to get to the river I saw the spent tubes of fireworks, shotgun shells and garbage all over the place. We picked up a half gargage bag of cans, bottles, and general garbage over the weekend and didn't make a dent in it.

 

And before someone remarks that not all ATV guys fit the above profile... you are correct. However, there is a disproportiately large number of people in that crowd that do.

 

Without some laws with teeth and enforcement behind them, we will just see Alberta continue to be ripped up.

 

Adams

 

[ppb]

You need to go to the top to get anything done.

 

I have contacted the Minister of SRD (Dianne McQueen) in the past about these same types of issues. Of course I got the standard lip service in return, but numbers speak to to politicians as they know each is a vote so I urge others to add their voices. The problem with simply trying to go somewhere else to fish is that we are running out of "else's" to go to. Alberta is quickly becoming one big motocross track with absolutely no limits or law enforcement imposed on these people. Not all of them disrepect the environment, but a large number of them do as it witnessed by the trash left around their campsites and the ripped-up countryside. I talked to a CO who told me it is not illegal for them to cross any stream as long as they go directly across. That law is obviously far too lax and virtually unenforceable, which means it's open season.

 

Here's what I urged the Minister to do:

 

(1) Designate certain areas (preferably those areas they have already ruined) as ATV/Motocross bike areas and let them have at them. The rest of the province would be off-limits to the motocross crowd.

 

(2) Put officers on ATVs to patrol the off-limit areas and give them the mandate to clean this up by firm enforcement of the law. Without officers on ATVs it is virtually impossible to catch these guys. Other provinces have patrols of officers in the woods every single day and they hand out tickets and confiscate property (NB for example).

 

I was on the Livingstone lately and was shocked to see that it was overrun with bikes too. They were crossing streams, ripping up the countryside and then washing their bikes in the river afterwards. At night there were fireworks (powerful fireworks that could easily set a fire) and shotguns going off all over the place. The next day while walking through some of these ATV/motocross camps to get to the river I saw the spent tubes of fireworks, shotgun shells and garbage all over the place. We picked up a half gargage bag of cans, bottles, and general garbage over the weekend and didn't make a dent in it.

 

And before someone remarks that not all ATV guys fit the above profile... you are correct. However, there is a disproportiately large number of people in that crowd that do.

 

Without some laws with teeth and enforcement behind them, we will just see Alberta continue to be ripped up.

 

Adams

 

Agree with everything you have said. I made a trip to the Livingstone two weekends ago for the first time this year and was blown away at how bad the litter and destruction has progressed from past years. we drove around to various points on the river and were amazed with all the garbage, the multiple fire rings every 20 feet, and the amount of trees chopped or lumber nailed into trees. I used to go to the Livingstone range quite a bit in the past to relax, unwind and do a little flyfishing. It's become much harder to relax and unwind with the constant sounds of shotguns, fireworks, atv's and wild parties into the wee hours.

Guess i'm going to have to find another location in alberta to frequent. I've never been up to the Ram system, is it the same type of BS up there as well??

[CopperJonny]

Well here we go!!!! its high time we start a petition with the goal of protecting the habitat!!

The mistreatment of the fragile habitat we and others frequent, is UNACCEPTABLE ON ALL ACCOUNTS!!!

Time to be loud about it, the whole front range of the rockies north to south ! And anything less is insufficient!

All of these acts are despicable and PISS ME RIGHT OFF!

Why they overlook this is beyond me, and any excuse is not good enough. Ok so we're late in doing this, better late than never!

Let's get er dun!

PS- I love quading and riding too, yet there are places to do that in the prairie.... time to get in with the times!!!

Its OVER!!

 

And the BS about, " shucks... time to go find a new spot!"

That is Unacceptable as well!! Screw That!!

As unconfrontational and humbling as that may be, it won't help the fact and no changes will be made. We'll be running all our lives.

Seems kind of funny to me... thy will (presently) protect areas..ie: National Parks... yet, not others.. I call "discrimination" lol...

also how most times ..."the few ruin it for the many" except for this... hmm.

I have not an ounce of problem with responsible riders, but man... this kind of behaviour by so many really needs to cease to exist!

Maybe if they made trails that have to be adhered too... thats all!

Its been done.... look at Ya-Ha!! No motorized vehicles anymore... and it is doing so much the better for it...

 

[Swede]

Agree about the Livingstone, took the motorhome down there about 3 weeks ago. Ended up camping in a war zone it seems. It was non-stop rifle and shotguns going off almost all day and night. I was out in west central Alberta late Sunday night and did a drive around all the random camping spots after they had all headed in. I have to say I was pretty impressed that they where really clean and no garbage around. I guess some people have figured out that they just might be camping in these same spots 25 years from now.

[Guest NamasteMushroom]

People should speak up, but as is with all things in this Province...it's about the 'economy'.

 

Quaders, (and I'd like to say Motorhomes as well..... I've never seen a quader in a tent), guns, excessive burning of fuel, big 4 x 4s, chainsaws, etc etc.

 

This isn't a conspiracy, the government knows what is going on in these areas, and they choose to do nothing...unless its economically driven. Recently, the Alberta government announced it was going to put several million dollars into existing and new campgrounds to accomodate...and I quote "equiping sites with electrical hook ups because this is what Albertan's want". Camping at it's finest! It's no longer about the outdoors, or escapng the city; it's about cooking over a indoor stove, watching movies, turning on the heater when it gets cold [it's about using energy ($$$$$)].

 

When you see first hand the destruction of areas like Waiporous, and think to yourself 'how did it get to this point?', it becomes obvious there is another agenda (and this agenda is not hidden, its just the status quo.)

 

By the way, no offence to anyone [on this forum] with motorhomes or trailers.

[Ricinus]

Agree about the Livingstone, took the motorhome down there about 3 weeks ago. Ended up camping in a war zone it seems. It was non-stop rifle and shotguns going off almost all day and night. I was out in west central Alberta late Sunday night and did a drive around all the random camping spots after they had all headed in. I have to say I was pretty impressed that they where really clean and no garbage around. I guess some people have figured out that they just might be camping in these same spots 25 years from now.

 

 

 

Actually the campers in west central have been targeted, their licences recorded, and told if they leave a mess they will be charged. The result is everyone cleaned up their act. Just shows what a little enforcement does.

 

 

 

Mike

[Guest Grinr]

X 100 re:Livingstone!!

I went there for only my 2nd time ever on July 1st weekend,the first time being 2 weeks previous on the ES opening weekend.....what a Fn gong show and terrible disappointment!

I naively went there on Sunday with some pre-conceived notion of where I was gonna pitch my tent,a nice quiet lil campsite near the river that I had found June 17th.....NOT!!!

There was 15 campers/RVs at that location if there was one,and the same thing at absolutely EVERY river access point,field,and turnout from the Liv headwaters to below Racehorse.....Some HUGE gatherings of Canada Day partiers,like 2-300 in one locale....there musta been 3-400 campers,tents,RVs and 1000+ people along that stretch of trunk road.Needless to say,my plans for a relaxing overnight fishing trip were blown outta the water,being relatively new to Alberta(1yr) I was shocked at how busy that part of the countryside was.In the end I found a "relatively quiet" place to make camp and get a lil fishing in below Racehorse/Oldman,but to even find s place to park along Liv for a short fish was near impossible.

Lesson learned....NEVER AGAIN will I venture into that country on a long weekend!I swear,I'd pitch a tent in Fish Creek park rather than waste my time going there on a long weekend,and would have a more relaxing time!

[vhawk12]

Grew up camping in the Liv/Oldman/Dutch creek area and things have changed a ton since then. We would camp with my parent's friends and their kids and all the parents definately liked to have a good time and I'm sure were a bit loud at times, a few had dirtbikes and 'three-wheelers' There was never any garbage left behind, nor did they build semi-permanent structures that they left behind, bikes were always on trails, fellow campers were friendly, stopping to chat, but no one ever stalked you to your fishing spot. But they all grew up camping there and respect for those areas was passed down generationally as it has been to me. It is so disheartening to see what that area has become and fear where it is heading. We rarely go up there anymore, if we do, it's mid-week to try and avoid the craziness of the weekends.

 

Most guys here have said get video of the guys in the act and record license plates, etc, which is very important, but I would also urge you to take photos of any atrocity you come upon, even if no one is there to 'catch'. The more evidence there is, then maybe we can send of a nice big 'collage' of images to the gov't and show them what this area is becoming. We used to random camp, and enjoyed that freedom, but if banning random camping means preserving this area for my kids to use with their families, then I will adjust. I would be in favor of banning off-road vehicles in the area as well and although that isn't necessarily fair to responsible off-roaders, they can adjust too if they truly care to preserve this area.

[Hawgstoppah]

The area is forever ruined for me too. I cannot find what I seek in a fly fishing experience there anymore

[Gil]

Definely time to stop random camping and restrict off road activity. Its already gone way too far....

[EveretteD]

Grew up camping in the Liv/Oldman/Dutch creek area and things have changed a ton since then. We would camp with my parent's friends and their kids and all the parents definately liked to have a good time and I'm sure were a bit loud at times, a few had dirtbikes and 'three-wheelers' There was never any garbage left behind, nor did they build semi-permanent structures that they left behind, bikes were always on trails, fellow campers were friendly, stopping to chat, but no one ever stalked you to your fishing spot. But they all grew up camping there and respect for those areas was passed down generationally as it has been to me. It is so disheartening to see what that area has become and fear where it is heading. We rarely go up there anymore, if we do, it's mid-week to try and avoid the craziness of the weekends.

 

Most guys here have said get video of the guys in the act and record license plates, etc, which is very important, but I would also urge you to take photos of any atrocity you come upon, even if no one is there to 'catch'. The more evidence there is, then maybe we can send of a nice big 'collage' of images to the gov't and show them what this area is becoming. We used to random camp, and enjoyed that freedom, but if banning random camping means preserving this area for my kids to use with their families, then I will adjust. I would be in favor of banning off-road vehicles in the area as well and although that isn't necessarily fair to responsible off-roaders, they can adjust too if they truly care to preserve this area.

 

 

 

i also camp down that way.. and in my opinion there isnt enough patrol down there when there are large numbers. Both july and august long weekend there were a number of campers where we were, and a good place for fish and wildlife to come by and just show they're presence. They came into the camp just once, on i think saturday. Never stopped to ask anyone any questions just drove in and drove out. I'm sure if they stopped and talked to a few campsites they would have some information about people doing some inappropriate things and could be dealt with accordingly.

Its a great place to spend the weekend, and if you clean up all of your garbage and leave it just as you found it then we all could enjoy this place. However, thats not the case.... its too bad really.

 

the best part about where we camp is no one hardly fishes down there. They are there to quad. I'm ok with that. I have no problem spending the day on the river and not seeing more then 5 other people.

[northfork]

You guys have hit it all on the head. I random camp too, but I do it in a respectful way.

 

Anyways, kind of an unrelated side note, but have you guys wondered maybe why so many people random camp? Apart from the no ATVs allowed thing, i think a big driver is the cost of campgrounds. It is absolutely ridiculous how this province manages its campgrounds. cant even use the word manage. they contract everything out so that guys can charge what they want.

 

i know for example down in said area, of course im goona camp along the livingstone for free compared to paying 23+ bucks a night for a site in a campground with NO POWER, NO WATER, AND NO FIREWOOD INCLUDED.

 

i personally have a friend who operates a large campground, government owned, but he is the operator, in the rocky mountain house vicinity, who clears, thats right, clears, over 150k a year in profit on firewood sales alone.

 

something is not right here guys, i know its sort of beside the whole topic at hand but maybe if some things were done about this issue as well, that things may improve slightly in terms of wild places being more protected. tried having this discussion with an employee of SRD, oh excuse my french, now ESRD. dont even get me started on that....

[Guest NamasteMushroom]

X 100 re:Livingstone!!

Lesson learned....NEVER AGAIN will I venture into that country on a long weekend!I swear,I'd pitch a tent in Fish Creek park rather than waste my time going there on a long weekend,and would have a more relaxing time!

 

Really? But don't the crowds and destruction bring back memories of home?

[alan2]

This business of the quadders really burns me too. I see it all the time in the Castle area, and yeah, I'm sure there are some decent folks on them, but there seems to be a disproportionate number of them on those things who are simply ignorant. Much more so than say, flyfishing, hiking, horseback riding, golfing, boardsailing, bird watching, back country skiing etc etc. You get my drift.

 

The chicken and egg question is---Are ignorant people attracted to quads or do quads attract ignorant people?I think its the former but not sure but there is definitely some correlation. The facts speak for themselves.

[adams]

Here is the email address for Dianna McQueen (Minister of Environment and SRD) that is listed on her website:

 

draytonvalley.devon@assembly.ab.ca

 

I strongly urge those who are concerned to contact her and voice the above sentiments. Personally, for me, it's not just about the Livingstone but about a proper management strategy for the natural resources (particularly those in close proximity to trout streams) in the entire province. Putting restrictions on the Livingstone will just force these activities elsewhere. What we really need is containment of the destructive behaviours and strict enforcement of responsible activities in the remaining areas. If we had more COs and they handed out fines and confiscated property, things would change quickly. But they need laws to enforce. At present there is very little they can do as there are few laws to enforce.

 

Here is the website for Dianna McQueen in case anyone would like it:

 

http://www.assembly.ab.ca/net/index.aspx?p...r=56&leg=28

 

Adams