More On The Cutthroat And Brookie War

[Taco]

Trappers Lake, Colorado

 

Its never going to end looks like.

[flyfishfairwx]

Trappers Lake, Colorado

 

Its never going to end looks like.

 

 

So an act of man is impacted by an act of God/nature. The brookies did not ask to be flooded to the next lake, but and there is always a but, now they are being harvested with extreme measures, and then packed on ice and feed to the homeless which is great, but and there is always a but, why not move them back to there original lake ????

 

Who's to say that a power much smarter then we few creatures on earth did not intend for the EB to populate the west..

 

 

For reasons only he can see...

 

Think about your response ....hahahhahhahaaha J/K

 

wish they would ship some of them big lake brookies to me!!!

 

[126barnes]

I'm all for native species be left alone and being protected from invasive species. But the painting of the brookie (which happens to me my fav) as a ruination of native species rubs me the wrong way.

 

I have heard and read that brookies and browns have made huge impacts in the West, and seen the impacts of the browns & bows (to a lesser extent) on the East coast. Also read about the brookie dominating browns in Europe, the same browns that dominate the east coast brookies. I really don't think that one species (we are talking trout here) is any more dominate than another, just when new competition enters the ecosystem, the once "King of the castle" now has competition for survival.

 

I do not agree with this quote from the article

 

"Brookies have a natural advantage over cutthroat trout because brookies spawn in the fall while cutthroat spawn in spring. Brook trout fry hatch in May in Trappers Lake but cutthroat trout don't emerge from the gravel until August. By the time cutthroat eggs hatch, brook trout are already over 2 inches long, and may be able to eat some of the cutthroat. More importantly, the size disparity gives brookies a huge competitive advantage in their first year of life. "

 

Kind of like the chicken and the egg.

 

Wouldn't spring cutthroat fry all ready 2" long eat and out compete fall brook trout fry.

[Taco]

so you're saying, "survival of the fittest, sink or swim"? What about the brook trout restoration projects all over the east? Or for that matter, atlantic salmon projects? Should we even spend time and money correcting past man-made ecological blunders where feasible? I think so.

[Harps]

I do not agree with this quote from the article

 

"Brookies have a natural advantage over cutthroat trout because brookies spawn in the fall while cutthroat spawn in spring. Brook trout fry hatch in May in Trappers Lake but cutthroat trout don't emerge from the gravel until August. By the time cutthroat eggs hatch, brook trout are already over 2 inches long, and may be able to eat some of the cutthroat. More importantly, the size disparity gives brookies a huge competitive advantage in their first year of life. "

 

Kind of like the chicken and the egg.

 

Wouldn't spring cutthroat fry all ready 2" long eat and out compete fall brook trout fry.

 

Brook trout fry emerge from the gravel in early-mid spring. Cutthroat fry emerge in late spring to mid summer. There is not much growth in the cold winter months. Brookies also

 

Brook trout 1) displace cutties, then 2) replace them in a western environment. Brookies displace cutts through competition (depleting resources) and preventing access (territorial behavior). Brookies also prey on cutts more readily (many experiments have shown increased predation on cutts due to the later emergence). And in some places introducing brook trout introduced disease from hatcheries and other waters.

On top of that cutts may be more suceptable to man made changes to the ecosystem involving sediment transport to the streams... brookies can spawn on finer materials unlike cutthroat.

 

 

[Pipestoneflyguy]

I fish a small lake that has both Brookie and Cuttie populations - what is interesting, is that despite the strength of both populations I have watched the average size of cutties continue to grow consistantly over the last fifteen year period. They seem to be maxed out at 12-14" at this point. It is apparent that the cutties occupy the shallows and brookies take the deeps. - why in this particular lake do the two species not only co-exist but seemingly thrive.

 

[126barnes]

so you're saying, "survival of the fittest, sink or swim"? What about the brook trout restoration projects all over the east? Or for that matter, atlantic salmon projects? Should we even spend time and money correcting past man-made ecological blunders where feasible? I think so.

 

No not saying survival of the fittest, atleast didn't mean to. Just that invasive speicies as we label them are not alway dominate, they just intoduce competition into the ecosystem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[McLeod]

 

I do not like the term invasive species being used. Man brought them there willingly.

But whatever that is my hangup.

If those are native cuts then then I agree they must look at ways at making sure that recruitment numbers of Cutties stay at a good level. I would suggest raising some of the Cuts in hatchery and stocking them when they are at a biggest size to avoid predation.

Maybe a campaign to increase angler awarness combine with a liberal harves for the Brookies would

help.

 

Interesting story.

[Taco]

Barnes,

 

I can name you at least a dozen creeks within a hundred miles of where I'm sitting right now that used to be predominately cutthroat streams 25-30-40 yrs ago where nowadays you'd be hard pressed to find a native fish amongst the horde of stunted brook trout. Headwaters of the Crow comes to mind. Where do we draw the line? Hopefully before we have to start poisoning streams and dynamiting lakes like the Yanks.

[Harps]

I fish a small lake that has both Brookie and Cuttie populations - what is interesting, is that despite the strength of both populations I have watched the average size of cutties continue to grow consistantly over the last fifteen year period. They seem to be maxed out at 12-14" at this point. It is apparent that the cutties occupy the shallows and brookies take the deeps. - why in this particular lake do the two species not only co-exist but seemingly thrive.

 

I think they can co-exist in many places, where the situation is right. Each just needs to find a niche.

 

Unfortunately, there are many places where, in order to co-exist, one of the species has to experience a population decline (basic environmental carrying capacity). In one of my creeks that I've been fishing for over 20 year, I have seen the cutts (cuttbows) pretty much disappear. Maybe pure cutts would have survived better? I think the changes in the creek from road construction, and the changes to the beaver dams and the flooding all had an impact and the brookies were able to withstand better than the cutts. Without the brookies, would the cutts be doing better?

 

...

Brook trout are invasive non-native when they aren't desired; They are introduced non-native when they are. It all depends on current fisheries objectives.

 

Asian carp were brought here on purpose, as were starlings and rabbits to Austrailia and goats to Hawaii. Poor management decisions in the past shouldn't limit current actions.

[PGK]

.

[126barnes]

Taco

 

I'm sure you can.

 

My agrument was that the vise versa of larger brook trout fry preying on the smaller cuttrout fry could also be true. My thought on this came from the stocking of rainbows (also spring spawners) on the North East Avalon of Newfoundland, in some of these ponds you would be hard pressed to find a brook trout. Yes Rainbows and Cutts are different, but this is where I'm coming from.

[Taco]

Interesting! It seems they also have cutthroat on cutthroat hybridization going on in Trappers

[jonn]

 

 

...

Brook trout are invasive non-native when they aren't desired; They are introduced non-native when they are. It all depends on current fisheries objectives.

 

Asian carp were brought here on purpose, as were starlings and rabbits to Austrailia and goats to Hawaii. Poor management decisions in the past shouldn't limit current actions.

 

exactly

 

 

[Taco]

Taco

 

I'm sure you can.

 

My agrument was that the vise versa of larger brook trout fry preying on the smaller cuttrout fry could also be true. My thought on this came from the stocking of rainbows (also spring spawners) on the North East Avalon of Newfoundland, in some of these ponds you would be hard pressed to find a brook trout. Yes Rainbows and Cutts are different, but this is where I'm coming from.

 

Yeah I see, tain't simple is it?

 

[nebc]

Barnes,

 

I can name you at least a dozen creeks within a hundred miles of where I'm sitting right now that used to be predominately cutthroat streams 25-30-40 yrs ago where nowadays you'd be hard pressed to find a native fish amongst the horde of stunted brook trout. Headwaters of the Crow comes to mind. Where do we draw the line? Hopefully before we have to start poisoning streams and dynamiting lakes like the Yanks.

 

In the same theme, back in the late 1950s to late 1960s i used to fish an almost inexhaustable creek that had a thriving brook trout population with fish up to 4 pounds but averaging around 3/4 to 1 pound. In recent years I went back and there are no brook trout or rainbow...just red sided shiners...worse yet there is barely any fish habitat left....water flows are almost not there at all any more. Logging in the surrounding watersheds in that small valley has done a more thorough job on those brookies than what I saw happening to the cutties on Vanc. Island.

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

good read. I find that when im camping and the stream/lake has both i will take the brookies over the cutts. The reproduce soo fast that i dont even feel bad about the numbers

 

wow do PKG and i agree......lol

[McLeod]

The term invasive species has a definition, I suggest looking it up. It's not open for interpretation, it has a single, defined meaning. It differs from introduced / alien species. Brook trout are both invasive and alien species (in the west). Whitetail deer by their very nature of reproduction and adaptibility to virtually any habitat are invasive, while in many areas are not alien. The same could apply to elk, or even cutthroat trout under the right circumstances.

 

Hatchery strain defeats the purpose of native strain. What good would it do to stock a bunch of (inbred, genetically inferior) catchables (which will increase fishing pressure when people find out) which will fail at recruitment anyway because the stinking brookies will eat their offspring (not to mention they are genetically inferior so they will be less ecologically successful because their parents were hatchery slugs).

 

Liberal harvest rates on BKTR will put them into compensatory reproduction, which means they will reproduce at age two, instead of age four, eg: they stunt.

 

Education is king, experience is queen, all the rest is angels dancing on the heads of pins.

 

There you go again ..You just don't get ..You communication skills and you reading skills obviously need some work.And that is an understatement..

 

First of all I am very familiar with what the hell an invasive species is.. READ WHAT I WROTE !

I am not going to star debating alien and invasive species with you and the history of them in Alberta.

A degree in Zoology , working at Fish and Wildlie and 35 year of running around this province fishing everywhere I pretty much know what is going on.

 

Did I say hatchery fish using inferior in breed strains ? Did I say that ? Did I ?

I would assume that because you are SOo smart that you would at least figure it out that you take fish from lake and use that gene pool and resupply the lake. But you are to busy attacking people then figure out on your own.

 

Compensatory reproduction..really ?

Now Brook trout in lakes can figure out their population numbers ?

I guess the Quirk Creek project is a waste of time because as the Brookies are removed the fish are

figuring that out and spawning at a younger age.. Oh but the surveys show Cuttie numbers are coming back and are up against the Brooke numbers since the removal project started..oh but wait

that is science and YOU would not understand that !

 

And finally you say Education is king, experience is queen, all the rest is angels dancing on the heads of pins. Does the P IN PGK stand for PIN ?

Oh sorry we just don't understand your point of view do we ? Maybe if you just has a little more education and experience !