Mclean Creek Getting Better?

[Xplorer]

Hey guys and gals,

 

I just saw the news on Global and Ctv about Mclean creek and how the situation appears to be getting better. They also said the total numbers of people were down from previous years so I am sure that affected the outcome. They have handed out many tickets but say less alcohol related offences. Ted Morton said things were looking better on his visit on Sat.

 

I am encouraged by the amount of enforcement I am seeing, I just wish it would have happened 10 years ago. I worry that this is just a knee jerk reaction by the province that will dissapper shortly after the long weekend and everything will go back to chaos. The enforcement is needed all year. I also worry that this will just push the idiots somewhere else. Has anybody heard about how the other areas(livingstone,indian graves, crowsnest pass) are doing?

 

I am a responsible Atv'er who avoids the Forestry like the plauge on all the long weekends, but hopefully this level of enforcement and education will continue and improve the situation.

 

I have a little hope but time will tell

 

cya

 

[cheeler]

Many will just shift around to different areas or drive farther to be left alone - its a widespread problem that requires a widespread solution. Driving back from the Crow on Friday I did see at least a half dozen cops around giving tickets out amongst the long convoy from Calgary, so hopefully that will send a message.

[trailhead]

I heard that they was tearin it up by Burnt Timber.

[AndyW]

I am no ATV'er or offroader but it is odd how the media and government focuses on areas that are designated off road areas such as McLean creek (sacrificial areas designated for this destruction by the government) and then shows a messy camp or burned out old car and you think this is the whole forestry? Fly over the north country or the foothills low altitude in a helicopter and it really shows how industry (forestry, oil and gas) is the real culprit of what is perminately screwing up our wild places. So they give a few punks with their mudders tickets for no mud flaps or an open case of beer and that will make it all better. No doubt these places need enforcement but come on- The majority of Albertans have no clue of the environmental cost of our prosperity, but show a warden on the evening news giving an 18 year old a ticket and the perception is we are protecting our wild places, its a joke!

[bhurt]

I am no ATV'er or offroader but it is odd how the media and government focuses on areas that are designated off road areas such as McLean creek (sacrificial areas designated for this destruction by the government) and then shows a messy camp or burned out old car and you think this is the whole forestry? Fly over the north country or the foothills low altitude in a helicopter and it really shows how industry (forestry, oil and gas) is the real culprit of what is perminately screwing up our wild places. So they give a few punks with their mudders tickets for no mud flaps or an open case of beer and that will make it all better. No doubt these places need enforcement but come on- The majority of Albertans have no clue of the environmental cost of our prosperity, but show a warden on the evening news giving an 18 year old a ticket and the perception is we are protecting our wild places, its a joke!

 

So what you are saying is let the kids drive their vechiles through the water systems destroying the stream bed (This has been happening for years in Mcleann Creek and Whipros) which WILL harm our natural species in that water system, plus the countless other damages it does, but I guess it is okay by your standards cause there is alot of other MORE IMPORTANT ISSUSES (and really what makes something more important then something else when it comes to our Enviroment)

 

Also I guess we can burn plastic which causes alot of damage to the ozone (I am sure there was plastic in the burned car), have you ever seen some of the stuff that is throwen into a campfire, not to mention a wild fire that could of been caused by a burned car in a forest campground, but once again this isn't a issuse according to you.

 

I also remeber over a ton of garbage was hauled out during the lord Beverbrook grad one year, I guess that is okay too by your standards.

 

Not saying that there are not other issuses but all issuses with the enviroment is critical and needs attention, ignore one issue and it will get out of hand. The problems you suggest needs to come from Goverment regulations and to make fines bigger then what it would cost the company, sometimes getting fined by the goverment is cheeper then doing it the correct way.

[AndyW]

Bhurt,

 

Take a breath and re-read my post, we agree on this I am sure. If you ever get a chance to fly over the eastern slopes you will see where I am coming from. All I said is that the perception is that the majority of environmental damage is coming from ATV'ers and long weekend campers which it is not, and media sure likes to jump on this bandwagon every spring as well. When Spray lake sawmills gets a permit to log K-country, or NAL gets a permit to punch dozens of new roads to a new gas fields is where the real damage is coming from, which I have never seen a news report on. Through proper permits and following protocol 1000 fold more damage to our wild places happens from industrial use than recreational use. There should be a balance of course, but blanket protection such as more wildland parks will never happen as the industrial users would be shut out. A kid getting a ticket with 35" tires on his truck gets the sound byte on the news but in the big picture it is insignificant compared to what legally happens under the guise of growth. Ya think one burnt out abandoned vehicle is as harmful to the environment as the 10's of thousands of flares that burn 24/7 at the gas wells? Yes it is upsetting to see all the garbage and crap that gets left out there, and great that they give tickets to the litterbugs. But at the rate tey are whacking all the trees down in K-country outside of the park some litter after a weekend is really not the long term problem for the area as you are led to believe after watching the news.

 

Eh I think these OHV areas should be shut right down, so pretty obvious I am for more enforcement, just the media slant and then Ted Morton's long weekend tour to address this pisses me off. I sure know that Ted Morton is against OHV's but I wonder what he thinks of Sparay Lakes Sawmills clearcutting in K-country right where all this ATV abuse is taking place? This *hit has been on the news for the past 4 evenings now, what should get more media attention?

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

im with you Andy, give the nobs a place to play and they will congregate there and not in other areas. Mclean is too far gone so let the shits blow gas and exhaust and have a good time.

 

remember these guys fix your cars and take your garbage to the dump, if this is all they require to come back to work and work hard then so be it.

 

Yes they were up at the burnt timber btw.

 

my question is how far out do i have to go before the 4X4 guys burn too much gas driving to the trail head then on the trail and there for dont go any farther! There must be a formula i have use to figure this out.

 

gas burned driving too location + fuel for trail driving = too far

[Harps]

Andy,

 

I've seen more damage to the east slopes from a few weekends, than caused by a couple of years of O&G use.

Yes, logging looks bad, causes horrible open areas, changes hydrology, etc.

Yes O&G cuts trails, clears well pads, opens access, and pollutes.

Yes, roads are horrible (they allow rec users into the mountains).

I'd prefer no industrial use in the east slopes at all. Period. (I think industrial use is improving, and the landscape is recovering good... I just wish the use would stop so the land could recover all the way. There are a lot of old mines, cut blocks, and dams in the S east slopes that most people would think are "pristine" sites.)

 

While industry does have an impact, they do have rules they follow (should follow, but don't always) to minimize their damage they could cause, while still making a profit (and a product demanded by society.... a mostly urban society). Off-Highway-Vehicle use... well they don't stay on trails, they don't follow timing windows, they don't leave buffers for the streams, they don't reclaim anything, they don't hire consultants to work to minimize their impacts, etc, etc... do I need to go on?

OHV use has no rules and a dumb entitlement mentality, where they can do anything they want and go anywhere.

A few ignorant, delinquent, and/or malicious individuals will always choose to run the deer down;

to wash their truck in the creek;

to see who can make the biggest rut;

to chose to drive through the creek instead of use the bridge;

to get stuck just to get pulled out and get stuck again;

to leave their trash for others to clean up;

to cut new trails and keep old ones open.

 

What makes all of those worse?

Thousands of OHV's each summer.

 

There is no place too far for OHV in Alberta while there is still more money than brains (by far not most of the riders).

 

Why should we have sacrifice areas in clean ecologically-fragile places instead of old gravel pits and places closer to the city where OHV's can tear up what they want? Why do their rights to destroy supersede my rights to clean water, a quiet trail, wildlife, and an intact (as can be) ecosystem? A hiker has to pay to go to a place (a National Park) to get away from motorized traffic now... how is that fair?

[trailhead]

Very well put Harps.

And they did tear it up at Burnt Timber this year. So now the taxpayer is on the hook for the cleanup.

[Xplorer]

Hey guys,

 

I didn't really want this to turn into an Atv bashing thread but stuff happens.

 

I see posts like this:

 

"remember these guys fix your cars and take your garbage to the dump, if this is all they require to come back to work and work hard then so be it."

 

It is no wonder some people think of flyfisherman as elitist snobs. The people that I know who atv have a large range of careers and to sterotype them to this is a rather uneducated shot, even if it is a popular one to make. There are definitely morons out there who atv, but there are morons who fish, hunt, drive a car etc.

 

Harp's I see where you are coming from about the damage done and how atving affects your enjoyment of the outdoors. What I don't see is how banning of one group is fair for everyone. The atv community would not be happy riding around in a gravel pit and only there, anymore than you would to fish in the bownees park lagoon and only there.

 

I think the government is trying to find a middle ground where everyone can use the land that belongs to all of us. The atv user groups have been working with the government for years, building bridges, cleaning areas, educating people etc in an effort to improve the relationship with other user groups and reduce impact. There are a certain percentage of idiots in every hobby. There are lots of people who fish with bait, barbs on their hooks, out of season etc do we ban fishing?

 

I think we are all going to have to find a way to deal with Atv use no matter what your side of the issue. I don't think Atv use is going to be banned anytime soon and judging from the governments comments as of late, more access for atv's is being looked at.

 

 

 

 

[Xplorer]

The mess at Burnt Timber was caused by aftergrad parties not Ohv users according to the news last night. Apparently the atv users did well when it came to their campsites(once again according to the news last night)

 

 

[Harps]

Xplorer,

 

I think we've had these talks on here before.

 

I think there should be designated trails for OHV use and areas that are off-limits.

I don't agree on banning anything outright, but I don't agree with no-holds-bar sacrifice areas fro OHV use. Sacrifice areas should be limited to industial sites and very predisturbed areas such as gravel pits.

 

You compare OHV use to fishing... there are regulations governing our fishing. We can't fish certain areas at certain times. We can't use certain gear or methods. We have limits to what we take. When caught, we get fined for breaking regulations.

How does that compare? There are no OHV regulations. The Habitat protection measures in the Fisheries Act (federal) don't apply to recreational users. THey can go where they want when thay want for as long as they want.

 

I've worked with the Quad squad... I also know that a lot of OHV guys hate them and actively avoid using the bridges they are putting in (too small for trucks anyways). So close a ford with a bridge and then somebody else makes a new ford... plus the trail improvements open more access.

 

 

The middle ground would be to regulate OHV use, restrict some areas, put timing restrictions in place, charge a crownland access fee, and start enforcing existing and new rules.

 

Education doesn't stop poachers... fines do. Same rules, fair treatment, that's all I'm asking.

[Xplorer]

Hey Harps,

 

Yes, we have talked about this before, a few times I think.

 

I get what you are saying about sacrifice area's for the guys who want to do circles in the mud till they fall down. That would be a great idea, it would keep them out of the creeks and rivers.

 

I too do not want the forestry to be no-holds-bar areas, I want the enforcement, I want the yahoos to be punished for the crap they do.

 

There are laws and regulations regarding atv use, they just are not enforced. Well thats not quite true, they are starting to enforce them in areas like Mclean Creek but the whole province needs this level of enforcement.

 

I am a quad squad member and I think they put in 20 bridges last year, and most have marks from some idiot going around them. That really bugs me, I just don't understand why someone would go around a bridge, if its the right size for your vehicle. If its not the right size you might be on the wrong trail and should'nt be there anyway.

 

Harps wrote:

 

"The middle ground would be to regulate OHV use, restrict some areas, put timing restrictions in place, charge a crownland access fee, and start enforcing existing and new rules.

 

Education doesn't stop poachers... fines do. Same rules, fair treatment, that's all I'm asking."

 

 

This is exactly what I would like to see and I think it is completely possible.

 

Cya

[trailhead]

The mess at Burnt Timber was caused by aftergrad parties not Ohv users according to the news last night. Apparently the atv users did well when it came to their campsites(once again according to the news last night)

 

I know of some of the people that were there and they haven't been "grads" for quite a long time. Except maybe from the Calgary Institute of *hit Disturbers. And yes you are right they weren't ATV'ers per se, but some of them did have OHV's.