Loving The Livingstone To Death?

[mikefromsundre]

Was down on the Livingstone the first week of July. I have some thoughts about what I am seeing... My usual favortie camping spot was disgusting. In ten years I have never seen so much garbage and ass wipe everywhere. Broken chairs, bottles, cans, jug of engine oil, golf balls(?) Between the 5 of us we also found that a huge number of the fish are scared up. Torn lips and tongues and missing eyes. Are we loving the stream to death folks?

Arrogantly I headed to the N Ram this week thinking things would be better up there. Same garbage problem. A full garbage bag nicely tied up tossed into the trees. Not as much damage to the fish though. I am getting tired of carrying everyone elses garbage out. I live in a rural area and have to pay for my garbage disposal. I have a suggestion. I am going to write to Ab Res. and suggest that garbage bins be placed at key places such as the fire station along the oldman. Perhaps it would help if there was someplace for backcountry users to dispose of their garbage. There are lots of bins throughtout Banff and Jasper. I know it would cost money. But what is all the trash in the bush costing us? Just my thoughts....

[lonefisher]

your totally right I would like to have a license to kill most of the time I am out in these sorta areas. But I have a feeling you could have a bin everywhere and there would still be pricks who are too lazy to walk the 15 feet and put their crap in them. Suggesting more bins is all well and good but in reality it comes down to enforcement enforcement enforcement. We need someone out there handing out big fines to everyone who litters. That and certain parties should be busted up before they start busting stuff up. Its not hard to recognize which ones are gonna cause trouble as there is usually 6 cases of pilsner and 2 60lbers of candian club. Honestly I say draft a set of new rules governing random camping post signage indicating the rules and hammer (and I mean fing HAMMER) anyone not abiding by them. If anyone so much as disputes a fine kick the whole group out...... anyways I could go on but whats the point

[dryfly]

FROM A PREVIOUS THREAD....GET WRITING...WE ARE THE CONVERTED.

=====================================================================

 

This is a long-term, big picture issue. And it is most complex because forestry use, hunting and fishing fall under different divisions of SRD. And there is not (was not) good linkage between forestry and F&W. Camping and land use is managed (or NOT managed) by "forestry." Hunting and fishing regs fall to F&W Division. Naturally random campers who have troubles with (say) bears divert F&W Officers. It really is a bloody bureaucratic mess.

 

BTW.. I made this page a few years back...seemed to help for one year.

Random camping page...

 

As others have noted, clamping down in one geographic area just moves the problem elsewhere. It's like putting a pail of manure in the front room to keep the flies out of the kitchen. Don't work.

 

You folks can pick up the ball. Write to Dr. Ted Morton. He could be the first minister we've had with balls to make real changes. As posted previously, here are some addresses for you to write. Henderson and Empson are new to this list.

 

The Hon. Dr. Ted Morton, Minister

Sustainable Resource Development

420 Legislature Building

10800 - 97 Avenue

Edmonton, AB T5K 2B6

 

Deryl Empson,

Director, Enforcement-Field Services Branch, Fish and Wildlife Division

Enforcement Field Services Branch

Sustainable Resource Development

3rd fl Great West Life Building

9920 - 108 Street

Edmonton, AB T5K 2M4

E-mail: deryl.empson@gov.ab.ca

 

Brad Pickering, Deputy Minister

Office of the Deputy Minister

Sustainable Resource Development

11th fl Petroleum Plaza ST

9915 - 108 Street

Edmonton, AB T5K 2G8

E-mail: brad.pickering@gov.ab.ca

 

Cliff Henderson, Assistant Deputy Minister

Forestry Division

Sustainable Resource Development

11th fl Petroleum Plaza ST

9915 - 108 Street

Edmonton, AB T5K 2G8

cliff.henderson@gov.ab.ca

 

Ken Crutchfield

Executive Director, Fisheries Management Branch

Fisheries Management Branch

Sustainable Resource Development

2nd fl Great West Life Building

9920 - 108 Street

Edmonton, AB

T5K 2M4

E-mail: ken.crutchfield@gov.ab.ca

 

Ken Ambrock

Assistant Deputy Minister

Fish and Wildlife Division

Sustainable Resource Development

11th fl Petroleum Plaza ST

9915 - 108 Street

Edmonton, AB

T5K 2G8

E-mail: ken.ambrock@gov.ab.ca

 

David Coutts, MLA

513 Legislature Building

10800 - 97 Avenue

Edmonton, AB T5K 2B6

[Weedy1]

But I have a feeling you could have a bin everywhere and there would still be pricks who are too lazy to walk the 15 feet and put their crap in them.

 

Or they would light them on fire. Hey, they make the perfect fire pit.

[clarki]

just want to clarify that the condition of the fish has nothing to do with the random camping problem in that area. the beat up looking cutts in the livingstone are due to 10+ years of c&r. something needs to be done to help this natural area. havent fished/camped there in 3 years and may not ever again.later

 

M

[Guest bigbadbrent]

It would obviously have something to do with it...it's not like none of the campers fish..

[Hawgstoppah]

It's from the assclowns who cant see it fit to obey the regs and pinch their barbs.

[dryfly]

Fish abuse, random camping mess, quadding and biking ... all part of lacking educational, enforcement, staffing and BIG PICTURE east slopes management. The minister is open to public input and needs to hear all about the issues from many people.

[clarki]

random camping or not, the cutts in the liv have looked that way for along time now. its been catch and release for so long and was before barbless regs came into effect. those fish are that way because they have been caught so many times over. i dont think its fair to lump the looks of the fish in with the random camping issue.

 

M

[dryfly]

clarki raises a good point..some of these fish are a few years old and been landed twenty times..

 

ALSO ... a slippery slope for C&R anglers to start pissing and moaing about "Fish abuse" .. oops .. an "in" for animal rights folks. However, you should write concerns (poaching, bait etc etc) to the minister.

[wongrs]

Well, why not start a letter-writing campaign here? There are some 680 members here and perhaps a generic letter sent to Clive's listed contact info would show that there is concern about East Slopes Management. I ran into an SRD officer down in the Castle drainage this past weekend and he was pissed at the situation as well.

 

Perhaps FFC can start a letter-writing campaign? I'd like to stay optimistic thinking that a couple hundred letters can still influence beauracratic decision makers. Moderators, please remove this post if inappropriate. I can draft a letter if necessary.

[LynnF]

In my experience (I wrote letters on behalf of 2 organizations in the past), I would think that the members of this forum as a whole would carry a lot more weight than single individuals writing a letter. If a letter were crafted and the names of those supporting members were added, I think that would be awesome.

[vhawk12]

Was down on the Livingstone the first week of July. I have some thoughts about what I am seeing... My usual favortie camping spot was disgusting. In ten years I have never seen so much garbage and ass wipe everywhere. Broken chairs, bottles, cans, jug of engine oil, golf balls(?) Between the 5 of us we also found that a huge number of the fish are scared up. Torn lips and tongues and missing eyes. Are we loving the stream to death folks?

Arrogantly I headed to the N Ram this week thinking things would be better up there. Same garbage problem. A full garbage bag nicely tied up tossed into the trees. Not as much damage to the fish though. I am getting tired of carrying everyone elses garbage out. I live in a rural area and have to pay for my garbage disposal. I have a suggestion. I am going to write to Ab Res. and suggest that garbage bins be placed at key places such as the fire station along the oldman. Perhaps it would help if there was someplace for backcountry users to dispose of their garbage. There are lots of bins throughtout Banff and Jasper. I know it would cost money. But what is all the trash in the bush costing us? Just my thoughts....

 

Aren't there still large garbage bins just outside the campgrounds on the Northwest branch and Dutch?

[Guest rusty]

The fish on the Liv are beat to hell because the area is pounded day in and out all season. It's inevitable that the fish get gored a bit - after all, I'm sure we don't tickle them when we catch them.

 

The Liv is not even 130km from the south end of Calgary - and there are not that many fish in it.

[bloom]

I use to love that river...my favourite in fact, but I've spent 6 days in the pass since July 1 and not once did I head North on the trunk road. I've found that there is just so much other water in that area that doesn't get pounded that it's tough to head North. I feel bad for it.

[mikefromsundre]

Sorry I have not checked this board for a few days... Some points came up. I am not saying that fish damage is part of the garbage problem. If you check out my thread title my thoughts were are we loving a place to death, garbage, fish damage, etc are all symptoms of what I see as a problem. Clive made some good points it boils down to management. There are bins at the campgrounds but when I tried to dump garbage into the bins at the campgrounds I was scolded by the operator because he has to pay to have the garbage hauled out and I had not paid to camp. The bin idea was so someone like myself had somewhere to put others' garbage rather than haul it all home.

[rhuseby]

It's a vicious circle, especially if we get limited on the amount of garbage we can put out at home. Scumbags dump, we pick up but can't dump it anywhere, so where do we put it. We want rivers protected so we make sure people know about them, cause the more friends a river has the better, but then the fish get beat up. We just have to try and remember that there are a hell of a lot of people living in this province now, and a certain percentage of them fish. At least when I was a kid, there were less than a million people in the bloody province, access was tough cause few roads and cutlines, but there still problems on any kind of accessable water. Life never bloody changes, but at least the fish still bite and there are people who care about them. Let's do what we can and tolerate the rest.

[Taco]

It's a vicious circle, especially if we get limited on the amount of garbage we can put out at home. Scumbags dump, we pick up but can't dump it anywhere, so where do we put it. We want rivers protected so we make sure people know about them, cause the more friends a river has the better, but then the fish get beat up. We just have to try and remember that there are a hell of a lot of people living in this province now, and a certain percentage of them fish. At least when I was a kid, there were less than a million people in the bloody province, access was tough cause few roads and cutlines, but there still problems on any kind of accessable water. Life never bloody changes, but at least the fish still bite and there are people who care about them. Let's do what we can and tolerate the rest.

 

Bingo!!! Give the man a prize!