Carseland Convenience Store Bait

[PlayDoh]

I was at Carseland for bit today, and I remember a friend of mine who was unaware of the bait ban on the bow. His dad was the one who mentioned, or suggested we use Minnows. I thought he was joking, but when I told them about the Regs my friend was all defensive, and wouldn't believe I was right. I remember he mentioned that they sold minnows and bait at the store in Carseland, and I later saw it myself. His argument was that "well if they sell them at the tiny Carseland store, 1km from the river, I'd think bait is allowed".

 

Long story short, he had a point, and I was thinking about it today. They must sell enough bait there, otherwise the fridge and freezer wouldn't be there too long I'm sure of that. I seen it, I'm thinking 3 or 4 years ago, yet it wouldn't surprise me to see it there now.

 

Theres a bait business near Strathmore, which I'd assume is who supplies the local stores with bait. I bought bait at Strathmore for my trip east, but I would also assume that some of the Strathmore bait makes its way into the Bow. I thought of a mandatory label on the bait fridge, informing people of the Bow bait ban. I'd think that some of the "poachers" are like my friend who never bothered to read the regulations. I can't help but feel disappointed at the bait supplier, but I can't blame them for the actions of poacher.

 

Now I know its fundamentally a matter of ignorance about the importance of obeying conservation regulations. I'm afraid that even after my informing my friend and his dad, who consequently is an avid hunter, taxidermist, and half native , I don't have much faith they still don't use minnows. I've been thinking about the regulations booklet, and how it really lacks the clarity and simplicity that could help avoid misunderstanding. I know its not easy to compile every body of water, all with individual regulations, but I think a few of the high importance regs could be made more clear. For example, the second page of the booklet, IMO, should make Alberta's barb-less regs, Bull trout C&R, and the Bow river bait ban, and NSR or Crowsnest high importance regulations crystal clear, in big bold print.

 

 

I think the bait-ban issue can be construed as a "fly fishing only" rule, that some anglers that only use a spin rod and lack the knowledge of how to fish without bait, find offensive. Why not place signs at all the major fishing spots, and bridges and other main access points (Mc Innons, ect), so you'd have to be blind not to know the regs. I'd think it would be cost effective if you account for the fish, yet I'm afraid that wildlife has little or no monetary value in our current society, and fishing with bait tickets might be the F&W's bread and butter. I'm not suggesting its a F&W 'cash cow' but I know the dont get the funding they should, or used to get.

 

I know this a proverbial 'can of worms' (pun intended), but I'm personally concerned about the number of people who use bait on the Bow. It would be great if they did a bit on the bait ban on the news, if only to increase the publics knowledge of the Bow and its conservation. It would be nice if the average Calgarian knew more, since I can think of all the people my friend and his dad said "hey, you should use minnows" to.

 

I'm dreaming now, I know, but I can't help but think that the regulations booklet, and some basic public awareness (signs, media, ect) improvement could do a lot to curb the problem. I'd venture to guess that at least a portion of the people who use bait on the Bow are simply unaware of the ban. Also nobody likes being told what to do, especially by some guy with a fly rod, aka, Mr/Mrs Big Shot. lol

 

Anyone else share my concerns?

 

This sign is the perfect example. People love big signs, and I'd bet there are people who didn't even bother to look at the regs for this body of water, yet its hard to get away with ignorance with this at the boat launch.

[Castuserraticus]

Ignorance is not an excuse. He does not have a point. Just cause guns and bows are sold within the city limits doesn't mean you can hunt there. They are taking part in a regulated activity and have a responsibility to know and abide by the rules. The onus is on the user. A car dealership does not require you to take a driving test prior to selling you a car.

 

The heavy fines for poaching are an educational tool. They're not going to break anyone but it can sure make them think twice about breaking the law again. I've argued with a person over his contention that marshmallows were not bait. I didn't have a phone at the time to call him in. The CO would have settled the argument.

 

Can you turn a friend in for poaching? Why not - especially if they're habitual? The program is anonymous.

 

Some older guys who wish for "the good old days" do not want to change their ways to adapt to the reality of today's world. I've had this conversation with my Dad.

[rhuseby]

Signs can be useful if access to a waterbody is limited to a few points, eg. most lakes. However, on a waterbody with many access points, if you are relying on sings, people use the ole "I didn't see any sign" defense. Plain and simple, anyone who fishes in this province KNOWS there are regulations and it's their responsibility to know what is pertinent to where they are fishing. If people choose to break the law, then they had better be prepared to take the consequences. What discourages the lawbreakers is people other than police or fish and wildlife turning them in. If they know a lot of people are watching for their misdeeds, they will quit performing them, at least where there are other people. People know they shouldn't be committing robbery and murder and so on, and it still happens.

[bigdaddy]

Ignorance is not an excuse. He does not have a point. Just cause guns and bows are sold within the city limits doesn't mean you can hunt there. They are taking part in a regulated activity and have a responsibility to know and abide by the rules. The onus is on the user. A car dealership does not require you to take a driving test prior to selling you a car.

 

 

I agree. It's up to the individual to know and abide by the rules.

 

The regs booklet is free when we buy or license each spring, and sit's on the counter at most retailers. Not picking one up is a choice, not reading it is a choice, not following the regs is also a choice. Chosing not to do something then claiming ingorance when the consequences of that decision lands on you isn't ignorance, it's a case of "serve's you right".

[PlayDoh]

I couldn't agree more with the argument that 'ignorance is not and excuse'.

 

Yet at the same time, placing blame does nothing for the fish. I know its not difficult to read the regs, and any responsible adult is capable of it. However, once again, it doesn't seem to matter or effect the number of people who fish with bait.

 

I really don't think the fish cares at all if they angler gets a ticket, once his gills have been torn from his body.

 

While I agree that selling ammo in a city doesn't give anyone rights to assume they can be used in the city. But that argument can be made both ways, and the more I thought about it, it didn't seem pertinent.

 

Selling bait at Carseland, and selling ammo in a city, is comparing apples and oranges.

 

The bait in Carseland has no realistic 'other' purpose being sold there, since the only water around is the Bow.

 

Its more a kin to selling ammo and guns, at the Banff toll both. The only reason you'd need ammo in Banff is if your poaching, and the only reason you'd be buying bait in Carseland is to use in the Bow.

 

I think a lot of people think of the issue the same as those who replied. Yet I don't see the Onus of reading the regulations, as all that should be done to curb the problem.

 

I honestly think the two little words at the very end of the regs "Bait ban", lack the effect they should have, considering the consequences.

 

Relying on 'everyday people' to enforce the law, is a recipe for trouble. I have no problem RAP, whether it be a friend or not. However waiting to 'bust' people after the fact, is the worst solution to any problem. The best solution is Education, and its hard to go over-board with education.

 

Sure, anyone can say "I didn't see the sign", Or any other excuse. Yet I'd at least like to think that some bait users are just unaware of the bait ban. Where as a simple $3 sign could avoid their poaching in ignorance.

 

Again, I know its the anglers responsibility to read the regs, and I'm not making excuses for anyone. Yet I not only know of one, but I can see there being lots more people who's interest and knowledge of fish/fishing being far less then mine, and them simply not seeing the tiny print "bait ban", in a not so easy to use booklet if your English or reading skills aren't great.

 

Sure, its the ignorant, almost illiterate, person who can barely speak English, who's to blame for his bait using, yet I simply believe that we could do a better job of educating people, and making it much more clear in the regulations book. No one method will cure all poaching, and there will always be people who will poach regardless of their knowledge, but again, I can see much improvement, and the need for it.

[clarki]

"The bait in Carseland has no realistic 'other' purpose being sold there, since the only water around is the Bow"

 

so what if a carseland resident wants to head out to travers or macgregor or crawling valley to jig some eyes using minnows? where does he go to get bait. i find your statement to be very narrow minded, there's more to fishing than the bow river and its trout and bait has a place in fishing, just not on the bow. carseland has other fishing opportunities near by other than your almighty bow river.

 

"Sure, its the ignorant, almost illiterate, person who can barely speak English, who's to blame for his bait using"

 

WTF??

 

M

 

 

 

M

[PlayDoh]

If your going East to Crawling, Mc Greg, ect, theres Strathmore where the bait is cheaper 24H/day. If your going west, theres Calgary. So no, there is no purpose of bait being sold at Carseland. Maybe you haven't been there, but Carseland is tiny.

 

carseland has other fishing opportunities near by other than your almighty bow river.

 

Such as...................... ?

 

There is no other fishing, where bait is allowed, near by Carseland, or where there isn't another place on the way to buy bait. The Bow is the only water around, Carseland. Sure its possible that one or more of the 100 residents might want bait for fishing somewhere else, but there is no way they sell enough bait for that purpose alone. Be realistic.

 

 

Look at other small towns, I can think of a dozen close by that have no bait for sale. Simply because you can get it somewhere else, along your way, and there is no use for bait close by.

 

Also, I never said it shouldn't be sold there, and everyone who buys bait in Carseland is a poacher, so I don't see how I'm being 'Narrow minded'. Yet only a fool would assume they sell sufficient amounts of bait there, all for other purposes then the Bow, IMO.

 

I bet you they sell around the same amounts of bait as Strathmore does, which is ten times the size, and the Bow river is only one of a dozen places you could head for, from Strathmore, and not be able to get bait anywhere else. I'm not suggesting that by simply removing the bait at Carseland, this will solve the problem, or that its fair to the towns residents and merchants.

 

Yet you can bet your bottom dollar, that the 'bait man' who put the fridge there and stocks it with bait knows where his product is going. And although you could make the same argument if they sold flies with barbs in them, and you'd be right. Yet I'm not interested in all the variables, just whats best for the fish. I wouldn't feel a bit bad for the residents of Carseland, if I knew they had to drive to get bait, yet I'm not going to preach to them that they shouldn't sell bait.

 

 

Of course we can make the 'what if' argument and turn a blind eye to an obvious problem. I've been hearing about people using bait/poaching a lot, so I think its safe to say there is room for improvment, in terms of education anglers.

[AndyW]

They sell barbed hooks EVERYWHERE, yet it is illegal to use them. I betcha all the poachers that use bait also don't pinch their barbs.....

 

How about a big sign wherever they sell hooks that says "these hooks are illegal the way they are sold, you must pinch the barbs"

 

If you see someone using bait on the Bow report them, end of story. Blaming the bait vendor is crazy talk.

[steelhead]

Holy, Listen to this guy go!

 

 

I have personally hit Carseland bait many many times in the past 15 years.

 

 

Why?

 

If Calgary doesnt have what I want, While i am driving to Travers or Keho, or The south Sask, I have a few options for bait stores to hit on the way.

 

Carseland, Mossliegh, Vulcan. And the latter 2 are always sold out. Carseland has it all!!

 

 

I used to use bait bought from there to fish the Bow. east of HWY24 was a free river to fish bait in 5 years ago. So there was a close by recent oppourtunity to fish bait on the bow.

 

All the other fellas, like me, who know of this bait store, generally hit it on thier way to other lakes.

 

I'm sure theres a small percentage who use it on the Bow ilegally, but i'm sure they know they will get caught sometimes cause theres enough of you whining snivellers down there ready to call the cops on them!

 

 

Theres no darn way you can compare the bait store in Carseland to illegal bait use on the Bow river.

 

Every husky or mohawk in Calgary sells bait, and thats where the most people are coming to go fishing from.

 

 

Steelhead

[jackfish]

I fish in BC quite a bit, and the regulations there are crazy, however we must follow them, one thing that cheeses me off is out of province anglers in BC pay way more for a license than out of province anglers in Alberta. I think Alberta can increase the price of out of province licenses and use some or all of that money to increase awearness and help enforce the regulations here. Laura and I use artificial lures all the time, we are skilled at fishing with casting, spinning, and fly fishing for numerous species. Here in alberta our regulations are easy to follow and I agree signs and other media can and should be used to help people be awear of the restrictions on certain bodys of water. However I don't think we will ever completely get rid of those few who know the rules but disobey them anyway just to catch a fish or kill a deer.

I can see how some guy,s would think that Fly anglers are trying to lord over everything, however being a fly angler and knowing many who fly fish I know that is not true, and no excuse is good enough to break the law. If a game warden catches a guy using bait on a body of water that bait is banned, teach him a lesson confiscate all of the anglers gear and issue a big ticket, just get em in the wallet.

Gary

[PlayDoh]

I really don't see why some people get offended by simply reading another's opinion or thoughts, but suit yourself.

 

I'm not going to defend my opinion against others who, either didn't take the time to read what I said, or just assume I'm some fly-fisher who thinks he's high and mighty. Yet I'm not a pretentious person and I'm not going to ignore the fact that bait being sold in Carseland is, in my opinion, both not a good idea without some notice about the MAJOR RIVER 1 Km away, and the bait ban, and somewhat hypocritical. I don't think this is a big deal, but I did see a dilemma.

 

I'm glad to hear that people buy bait from there for proper uses, and nothing would please me more then to know most or all of the bait never sees the Bow. I'm surprised that Mossliegh & Vulcan, also sell bait, which in all honesty does suggest there is sufficient demand from travelers. Again, I'm glad to hear it.

 

Every husky or mohawk in Calgary sells bait, and thats where the most people are coming to go fishing from.

 

I really don't see how that has anything to do with Carseland bait. 1 million residents to 662. Not to mention theres no Husky or Mohawk there either.

 

I'm not looking for an argument, despite the invitations;

theres enough of you whining snivellers down there ready to call the cops on them!

 

Blaming the bait vendor is crazy talk.

 

Hmmmmm. I do remember saying........

 

I can't help but feel disappointed at the bait supplier, but I can't blame them for the actions of poacher.

 

This forum exists so people can engage in public discussion, if you don't agree with my opinion, thats fine. Feel free to say so, but I can do without the attitude or accusations.

[AndyW]

...

[Hawgstoppah]

How bout a province wide bait ban

 

If you need bait to catch fish - any fish - well...... you don't know how to FISH then

 

sorry. I had to lighten this post up a little

[PlayDoh]

No worries. I'm not suggesting any new laws, regulations, or anything then possibly making the bait-ban a little more obvious, since its clear there are some who still haven't gotten the message.

 

If I was in charge, I'd put a 'bumper-sticker' sized sticker on the bait fridge at places near bait ban waters. I could also do some improvements to the Regulations book, in terms of structure.

 

Notice to Bow River Anglers

The Bow river now employs a total bait ban from the portion of river from the Calgary weir to Bassano.

 

I know its not necessary, and I'm not dogmatic & think my opinion and thoughts are always best. Just expressing a random thought, and I'd rather people didn't take it, or make it personal, to be honest.

[kungfool]

Notice to Bow River Anglers

The Bow river now employs a total bait ban from the portion of river from the Calgary weir to Bassano.

 

I truly believe that 99% of people that poach fish, use bait illegally, used barbed hooked ect., are fully aware that they are breaking the laws.

 

Unfortunately I don't think the signs would help much. For example, two weeks ago at Beaver, I was setting up my U-boat at the bank when a guy pulled up in his aluminum boat and started rigging out. He proceeded to tell us he caught a bunch but decided to only keep 2 (the limit is 2 with 1 over 40cm and one under) which I thought was odd the way he said it. Then as he walked by me he was carrying a large sour cream container with his worms. The sad part was that his truck was parked right in front of a giant sign that states the rules. He simply didnt give a crap.

 

In addition, earlier that morning I fished Ironside for the first time. I was stoked to see a huge sign that stated the regulations for the lake, as well as the fines that you have to walk right past to get to the water. Now, what was the first thing I saw on the ground as I wend to place my boat on it.?? Some asshats pickerel rig complete with dried worm and barbs not 6 feet from the signs.

 

I say line em up and fire up the flame thrower.

[PlayDoh]

Thats brutal KF. Your percentage could be spot on, and I'm ceaselessly amazed at how abundant ignorance and arrogance is. All the signs, regulations, and education in the world will not stop poaching I'm afraid, as you eluded to.

 

I'm also reminded of the fact the bait ban is still a new regulation, and there is hope of the situation improving. Again, the better a campain of education we can provide, the sooner old attitudes disapear.

 

I'm not trying to blow the situation out of proportion, but it just disgusts me how someone could disregard the best interest of the fish. To me Angling and conserving fish & wildlife, are one in the same. Not only would I like to improve my skill and understanding of angling, but I would also like to better understand the habitat where I fish at.

 

Since I find the river and its valleys very important areas, which need protection from the "asshats", I think of things like this. Plus its too wet to do anything and I'm bored as hell. lol

[ladystrange]

a feel good solution

 

keep the rap number with you, get a much details about the bait chucker as possible, good description of gear, clothing, the person ht, wt, age, race, colouring etc... vehicle - plate #, type of water craft, time, place, access point.

 

 

the more info the better. they will go find these guys if you can give details

 

and since we all like money>>>

 

i a ticket is given by F&W - the reporter gets a % of the ticket value. no i cant remember the amount but as per one of the COs, if there is one violation, ther are many.

 

the reports that get looked at first are the ones with the most detail. also the spinners get looked at before fly fishers... and that is from the CO for priorty on investigations. it isnt first come first served.

 

i would have to re-read the regs but i do believe there is a bait ban in most of the rivers except for maggots at certain times of the year. i dont use bait at all so i have never bothered to read that part of the regs and remember it. there are a number of waters that do not have bait bans, someone has to sell the bait somewhere. i agree we cant blame the store but the only way we are going to make a difference with conservation is giving a crap and calling in these asshats

[Hawgstoppah]

asshats

 

rofl that's MY word!

[Smitty]

Playdoh:

 

I have a solution to your boredom. In conjunction with your points made, have you done anything about how you feel?

 

I have you even tried approaching the owner of the Carseland store and asked him if he/she wouldn't mind putting up your sign (you made it right, good ol' MS Word) on his bait fridge, reminding that if anglers are fishing the Bow, that bait is prohibited?

 

Just a thought. I understand that you feel its a "proximity" thing (the only 1 km away), but you have nothing to support your argument other than suppositions and conjecture to guess the % of that store's bait is going in the river.

 

It's the owner's right to sell bait and he, like the rest of us, is trying to make a living. I know you understand that.

 

Smitty

 

P.S. Now, if the owner of the store called his store "Your one stop shop for all your Bow river bait needs..." well, that'd be different.

[PlayDoh]

Hey Smitty,

I don't think its a situation that warrants any personal crusade, and I think people got the wrong impression that I was upset, or greatly concerned about it. Simply putting bait farther away from the river, will not stop the poaching problem. Yet I do think that its very easy for someone who didn't read the regulations, to see a bait fridge in Carseland and make a fair assumption that the bait is there, if only in part, to supply Bow river anglers bait. I mean if I walked in to a small town store and seen a bait fridge, I'd be asking the clerk where the lake or river is thats close by. I wouldn't just assume its for the 600 residents, whom might go fishing. I've been to a lot of small town store, and if theres no need for something, they don't have it.

 

It certainly doesn't justify someone fishing a body of water without reading the regs, just because you can make a 'somewhat fair' assumption.

 

I'd guess that the bait fridge belongs to the Bait dealer, and I'll take your advice and write or contact them to see if a notice would be something they would volunteer. Yet I'd suspect they would react like some others, and only focus on the "provable facts", and "what if's". I can't prove any of the bait get in the Bow, but again common sense would suggest it does.

 

I also know the bait dealer and store owner are just trying to make a living. But let me ask you this, if it was your store, would you feel completely comfortable selling bait? Next long-weekend there will be tons of people down there, and I'd be very surprised if they don't sell more bait when the campground is full. If it was close enough, I'd count them before and after the long weekend.

 

I can assure you I don't have a sign made up, or plan on protesting at the store, or co-ordinating a campaign to rid the world of Carseland bait. It was just something I found a bit concerning.

 

Thanks for the suggestion though. (truly)

[Weedy1]

I mean if I walked in to a small town store and seen a bait fridge, I'd be asking the clerk where the lake or river is thats close by.

 

And with that said I suggest you do exactly that at the Carseland store next time your by it. The response you get should answer a few questions.