dutchie Posted June 12, 2012 Author Posted June 12, 2012 Regardless who is at fault or if anybody is to blame, I think Enbridge's Northern Gateway moved a little closer to the proverbial toilet flush. Mike i sure hope your correct Mike , in a sad way of this oil spill , it will make allot of people take notice , those who live in BC , get ready as this could very well happen in your back door , on one of your fav rivers , i still think having that pipeline going over through the skeena country is just bad bad news for all of canadians , must be a better and safer way , someone brighter then all of us surely can come up with a safe game plan to get this oil to china with very min risks Quote
CopperJonny Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 as a matter of fact Sundance .. surprised you haven't noticed that the feds are manipulating regulations and legilation to make this go through (NGP) without anymore hitches .... ie: flubbing up the fisheries act .. also this is NOT good for Canada by any means ... apparently we have a shortage of work .. do to the taps being opened and every player out there wants in on the "dirty oil" scheme , right now ... and are in fact building at break neck speeds , creating a "shortage of worker's within our borders , at the same time taking away from careers of Canadians who have to put food on the table ... once these projects are complete , will be down to minimal workforce / skeleton crews operating said plants ... only to struggle to fill positions when the maintenance problems arise .. which are 100% coming ! In doing so , they are also making it easier for foreign workers to work in Canada now as well . Which to me , a fella who actually reads between lines continually this lines up with Chinas interest and move toward helping build the lines ... mark my words , China's deal to purchase a large volume of the projected supply will in fact include having foreign workers (Chinese) come over here to build the pipeline and terminals included ... after all ... word is they are definately applying to build the components in China in the first place ... also creating a lesser wage cost ..... Please don't kid yourself .... the Conservatives are continuing to be persistent and consecutively pushing through changes in regulations and policies , legislations and acts ... favouring the business' worth and not the environment . Yes there will most definately be Candian jobs , yet the majority of those , alike with every other project will be the construction , which will bottle neck down to the least cost it will take to meet the demand ... its a given ... is 5 yrs of work comparable to the infinate damage to the land and water . Oh and by the way , the Oil Sands record is terrible !! Remember the ducks ? Have you ever seen the Athabasca below Fort Mackay ? Companies only ever make changes after accidents happen ... why they do not anticipate failures nor take precautionary measures until after something happens is sad ... hopefully out of this , someday that part will change .. Yes they plan and budget for this yet , hardly ever do they instinctively do it merely for .." You know , we should just do it , !" I understand , downtime is unpaid time , yet thats the way it is ! Rick , I have to mention that "No , I truly have not ever sat in a board room meeting , so I truly haven't knowledge of what goes on in there , and I will not claim to do so !" ( and honestly having only been on this forum only a year now , and having read posts on here and word of mouth . I do look forward to meeting you ! You sound like a great guy , with ethics and standards which I consider admirable ! and so does most everyone here ) Truly it has nothing to do with anyone here , we know that !! I do work in the other side of things and am in the work force 100% in the maintenance and construction of the sites , merely 14 yrs now as a Journeyman Welder with the Boilermaker's . And I may truly say without a doubt ... never once in my career has there been a project in Alberta other than new construction and shutdowns /turnarounds / maintenance on the sites here ... Truly they should have a cap on the volume of projects at a time , so as to allow worker's ( Canadian's first ) to have stable career's , directly is an economical pro in regards to every other field and industry in our country ie : Schools , Hospitals , Banks , Groceries , Accountants , lawyer's , public servants .... and so on , and so forth ... then look for help else where ... Starting with our sister nation to the south of us .. paramount to the approval of anymore projects , safety should be researched in building a more practical means of supplying the products ... As was stated earlier .. more technology has to be investigated and or brainstormed so as to not have these disaster's anymore .. I'm sure I may sound hippyish here , but I'm calling a spade a spade ! We have no more rights to use this rock than the birds , fish , Ungulates and every other living beings on here . We just take over and claim ownership , and do what ever we want to do , unfortunately destroying and or changing the landscape forever , via a temporary "need" we only live 70 - 100 yrs +- , and it changes the face of it for the worth .... EVERYTIME , merely to please our eyes .. regardless of impact of others who actually call it home . And shamefully it is always to make a peice of metal and or paper ... which makes our world go round ... Ever notice , any other living thing on this rock .. struggle through life , yet never once do they earn nor spend a cent in there whole lives , nor do they change anything permanently in doing so including their proginy .... funny that is Quote
Guest NamasteMushroom Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 I'm sure I may sound hippyish here , but I'm calling a spade a spade ! We have no more rights to use this rock than the birds , fish , Ungulates and every other living beings on here . We just take over and claim ownership , and do what ever we want to do , unfortunately destroying and or changing the landscape forever , via a temporary "need" we only live 70 - 100 yrs +- , and it changes the face of it for the worth .... EVERYTIME , merely to please our eyes .. regardless of impact of others who actually call it home . And shamefully it is always to make a peice of metal and or paper ... which makes our world go round ... Ever notice , any other living thing on this rock .. struggle through life , yet never once do they earn nor spend a cent in there whole lives , nor do they change anything permanently in doing so including their proginy .... funny that is Good post. Not Hippyish - just the truth. Only when the last tree is cut, and the last fish caught will we realize how worthless money is.... Quote
Guest Wrecker Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 What point are you trying to make? A company making 7.62% profit in 2012 is not anything to dance about unless you are moving out of a savings account. It is respectable as far as blue chip investments are concerned but it is far from spectacular. Big companies have big sales and big expenses. The bottom line is they are not making ridiculous profits. Simple. LOL! Quote
Guest Sundancefisher Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 as a matter of fact Sundance .. surprised you haven't noticed that the feds are manipulating regulations and legilation to make this go through (NGP) without anymore hitches .... ie: flubbing up the fisheries act .. also this is NOT good for Canada by any means ... apparently we have a shortage of work .. do to the taps being opened and every player out there wants in on the "dirty oil" scheme , right now ... and are in fact building at break neck speeds , creating a "shortage of worker's within our borders , at the same time taking away from careers of Canadians who have to put food on the table ... once these projects are complete , will be down to minimal workforce / skeleton crews operating said plants ... only to struggle to fill positions when the maintenance problems arise .. which are 100% coming ! In doing so , they are also making it easier for foreign workers to work in Canada now as well . Which to me , a fella who actually reads between lines continually this lines up with Chinas interest and move toward helping build the lines ... mark my words , China's deal to purchase a large volume of the projected supply will in fact include having foreign workers (Chinese) come over here to build the pipeline and terminals included ... after all ... word is they are definately applying to build the components in China in the first place ... also creating a lesser wage cost ..... Please don't kid yourself .... the Conservatives are continuing to be persistent and consecutively pushing through changes in regulations and policies , legislations and acts ... favouring the business' worth and not the environment . Yes there will most definately be Candian jobs , yet the majority of those , alike with every other project will be the construction , which will bottle neck down to the least cost it will take to meet the demand ... its a given ... is 5 yrs of work comparable to the infinate damage to the land and water . Oh and by the way , the Oil Sands record is terrible !! Remember the ducks ? Have you ever seen the Athabasca below Fort Mackay ? Companies only ever make changes after accidents happen ... why they do not anticipate failures nor take precautionary measures until after something happens is sad ... hopefully out of this , someday that part will change .. Yes they plan and budget for this yet , hardly ever do they instinctively do it merely for .." You know , we should just do it , !" I understand , downtime is unpaid time , yet thats the way it is ! Rick , I have to mention that "No , I truly have not ever sat in a board room meeting , so I truly haven't knowledge of what goes on in there , and I will not claim to do so !" ( and honestly having only been on this forum only a year now , and having read posts on here and word of mouth . I do look forward to meeting you ! You sound like a great guy , with ethics and standards which I consider admirable ! and so does most everyone here ) Truly it has nothing to do with anyone here , we know that !! I do work in the other side of things and am in the work force 100% in the maintenance and construction of the sites , merely 14 yrs now as a Journeyman Welder with the Boilermaker's . And I may truly say without a doubt ... never once in my career has there been a project in Alberta other than new construction and shutdowns /turnarounds / maintenance on the sites here ... Truly they should have a cap on the volume of projects at a time , so as to allow worker's ( Canadian's first ) to have stable career's , directly is an economical pro in regards to every other field and industry in our country ie : Schools , Hospitals , Banks , Groceries , Accountants , lawyer's , public servants .... and so on , and so forth ... then look for help else where ... Starting with our sister nation to the south of us .. paramount to the approval of anymore projects , safety should be researched in building a more practical means of supplying the products ... As was stated earlier .. more technology has to be investigated and or brainstormed so as to not have these disaster's anymore .. I'm sure I may sound hippyish here , but I'm calling a spade a spade ! We have no more rights to use this rock than the birds , fish , Ungulates and every other living beings on here . We just take over and claim ownership , and do what ever we want to do , unfortunately destroying and or changing the landscape forever , via a temporary "need" we only live 70 - 100 yrs +- , and it changes the face of it for the worth .... EVERYTIME , merely to please our eyes .. regardless of impact of others who actually call it home . And shamefully it is always to make a peice of metal and or paper ... which makes our world go round ... Ever notice , any other living thing on this rock .. struggle through life , yet never once do they earn nor spend a cent in there whole lives , nor do they change anything permanently in doing so including their proginy .... funny that is My big beef is GreenPeace paying to sending letter to people around the world to send in intervener letters in a Canadian process they don't have a right to say anything about. BC residents along the proposed path do. The NIMBY threads are many...but I also don't want nor need any spills. Anything and everything that can be done to prevent it should be within the technology and maintenance we currently have and improvement used going forward. Anything less would be wrong. Any short cuts should not be allowed. Turtling and not allowing any industrial activity in Canada any more...is not a proactive collaborative approach that will work. If more effort was made by groups to work with the system to improve it...mountains could be moved and great decisions made... whereas just saying no...protesting and stomping feet serves no purpose in the end...unless 1,000,000 head out... on bicycles to protest from the cities. It is easy to pick up the mistakes and run with them...but in context to the majority of the oil industry that are fine outstanding corporate citizens of Alberta...they are a trivial number. Press and environmentalists are quick to over blow issues...but some however small like the ducks...should not have happened and likely won't now. There are more ducks and birds killed by buildings and powerline and wind turbines than there. Botulism increased by farming practices and fertilizers kills ducks in the thousands and thousands and thousands in North America. A large mat of toxic dioxin slug is oozing down the Athabasca...yet no one cares. The oil spill will be cleaned up...but the dioxin mat never. Quote
Guest Sundancefisher Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 I'm sure I may sound hippyish here , but I'm calling a spade a spade ! We have no more rights to use this rock than the birds , fish , Ungulates and every other living beings on here . We just take over and claim ownership , and do what ever we want to do , unfortunately destroying and or changing the landscape forever , via a temporary "need" we only live 70 - 100 yrs +- , and it changes the face of it for the worth .... EVERYTIME , merely to please our eyes .. regardless of impact of others who actually call it home . And shamefully it is always to make a peice of metal and or paper ... which makes our world go round ... Ever notice , any other living thing on this rock .. struggle through life , yet never once do they earn nor spend a cent in there whole lives , nor do they change anything permanently in doing so including their proginy .... funny that is People are not rocks, nor birds not fish. Personifying non persons... you can feel sorry for everything around us. So what are the options. You can't live carbon free...it is impossible. You can't even feed yourself without impacting the world. PETA makes me laugh because they refuse to believe anyone should eat meat because it harms animals...and that includes having a pet. In fact...if you look at the farming practices that supports vegan living...you are destroying countless millions of acres of other animals habitat...effectively wiping them out of existence. So while we fret terribly over this...what should industrialized human beings do? You clearly use fish for your pleasure and likely harm invertebrates and plants while hunting for them. You use oil to fuel the vehicle and energy to build the graphite rods you fish with. How do we change to contrast your point? It is always an interesting philosophical question. Quote
Ricinus Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 Pipelines to PETA, this is evolving nicely, lol in a friendly way. Mike Quote
Guest NamasteMushroom Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 My big beef is GreenPeace paying to sending letter to people around the world to send in intervener letters in a Canadian process they don't have a right to say anything about. There are thousands of members of Green Peace who are Canadian citizens; certainly an international organization they are a part of can speak on their and other members behalf? Seems it's ok for all of the foriegn oil companies to have their say, right Sun. Quote
Guest NamasteMushroom Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 . There are more ducks and birds killed by buildings and powerline and wind turbines than there. Botulism increased by farming practices and fertilizers kills ducks in the thousands and thousands and thousands in North America. A large mat of toxic dioxin slug is oozing down the Athabasca...yet no one cares. The oil spill will be cleaned up...but the dioxin mat never. This thread is not about those issues, but what is most disturbing is that you use other dangers to wildlife and the environment to justiify the oil industries negligance. Spin Doctor Sun, FFC's Oil rep, expert in damage control, deflections, and disinformation. Quote
jonn Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 This thread is not about those issues, but what is most disturbing is that you use other dangers to wildlife and the environment to justiify the oil industries negligance. Spin Doctor Sun, FFC's Oil rep, expert in damage control, deflections, and disinformation. I don't think that is what he is doing at all. However I agree it's funny how many people jump on the "down with the oil field" ban wagon. While other industries do just as much damage and no one seems to give a sh!t. The oil field is just an easier target I guess. It drives me nuts when people who have no idea about the industry, can start bashing it! In the 12 short years I've been on drilling side, I've watched the industry do leaps and bounds with safety and enviroment. With any major player, it's always the main priorty. If we spill a gallon of oil on the ground, we need to report it, dig it down to clean soil, replace the soil and filter the contaminated soil. mean while my neighbors car dumps a liter on the road every time he parks it and no one cares, weird. And Dutch it wasn't an oil company, the pipe lines were 3rd partyed out. I don't think anyone is trying to justify the spill, but there going to happen with some of the shape these pipe lines are in. I think they need to have stricter rules on how long a pipe line can stay in the ground. I also think that they need better monitering on the flows going through them. Sun dance is right though, with todays materials and practices, the new lines are way more reliable. The majority of these ruptured lines are 40+ yrs old. Quote
Guest NamasteMushroom Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 And Dutch it wasn't an oil company, the pipe lines were 3rd partyed out. Deflection! Quote
jonn Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 Deflection! How is that a deflection, it's reality! If I punch you in the head you can't blame my neighbor, can you? Quote
Guest NamasteMushroom Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 How is that a deflection, it's reality! If I punch you in the head you can't blame my neighbor, can you? It's a deflection because you're passing blame on someone else. Who's the 3rd party? Is it not Plains Midstream's responsibilty to ensure the safety of the pipeline? Quote
jonn Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 It's a deflection because you're passing blame on someone else. Who's the 3rd party? Is it not Plains Midstream's responsibilty to ensure the safety of the pipeline? Plains midstream is the 3rd party. An oil company will drill and produce the oil or gas and then some of them 3rd party out the transportation, to companies like Plains Midstream. Quote
dutchie Posted June 13, 2012 Author Posted June 13, 2012 How is that a deflection, it's reality! If I punch you in the head you can't blame my neighbor, can you? thats just way to funny john 3 party or not john , my whole point is , '''it's a oil spill into a river ''' , not a litter of oil on the ground , a tad bit more , i'm sure no one wanted this to happen but it did , like you said , time maybe they start digging these old pipes with no oil in them up , or maybe start to replace the pipes near any water ways , or even dig them up at river crossing and replace with better pipe and put them in the ground another 20 feet more whatever is done needs to be done now , before another spill comes and yes i agree with your statement about your neighbor spills oil in his driveway and no one says or gets up in arms , i think if he dumped 3000 barrels in his driveway john , the shiz would hit the fan and you for one would want him in jail , Quote
Guest NamasteMushroom Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 Plains midstream is the 3rd party. An oil company will drill and produce the oil or gas and then some of them 3rd party out the transportation, to companies like Plains Midstream. So Plains Midstream would not be classified as an oil company despite the activities that include "crude oil transportation, gathering, marketing, terminalling and storage as well as marketing and storage of liquefied petroleum gas and other petroleum products". Spin on John. Quote
jonn Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 So Plains Midstream would not be classified as an oil company despite the activities that include "crude oil transportation, gathering, marketing, terminalling and storage as well as marketing and storage of liquefied petroleum gas and other petroleum products". Spin on John. Plains' operations can be categorized into two main business groups - Crude Oil and Liquefied Petroleum Gases ("LPG"). Our Crude Oil group handles the gathering, marketing, storage, terminalling and transportation of various grades of crude oil. We handle crude oil in the provinces of Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, as well as in Montana and North Dakota of the United States. Our LPG group handles the storage, transportation, terminalling and marketing of a variety of liquefied petroleum gases, such as propane, butane, and intermediates products (including natural gasoline, ethanol, naphtha, pentane, and aromatics). So no, I do not consider them to be an oil company, Plains Midstream is a Transportation and storage company. If a trucker is hauling bailsof hay does that make him a farmer? At least you looked at the web page though, kudo's to you! Look @ me spin Quote
jonn Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 thats just way to funny john 3 party or not john , my whole point is , '''it's a oil spill into a river ''' , not a litter of oil on the ground , a tad bit more , i'm sure no one wanted this to happen but it did , like you said , time maybe they start digging these old pipes with no oil in them up , or maybe start to replace the pipes near any water ways , or even dig them up at river crossing and replace with better pipe and put them in the ground another 20 feet more whatever is done needs to be done now , before another spill comes and yes i agree with your statement about your neighbor spills oil in his driveway and no one says or gets up in arms , i think if he dumped 3000 barrels in his driveway john , the shiz would hit the fan and you for one would want him in jail , I'm well aware that 1L doesn't compare to 3000bbL, I was just making a point. Pick up your phone you Putz! Quote
dutchie Posted June 13, 2012 Author Posted June 13, 2012 So Plains Midstream would not be classified as an oil company despite the activities that include "crude oil transportation, gathering, marketing, terminalling and storage as well as marketing and storage of liquefied petroleum gas and other petroleum products". Spin on John. it makes no diff at all on whose fault it is , it happen and it's still a spill of oil on a water way , thats all my point is , maybe next time it might be into the bow river , how would we all like to see that happen , think about if it had happen and went into the oldman river or for gods sake even the crowsnest , it's done now and the clean up is happening , i'd just like to see them at least make a effort and replace those pipes or do a better way around water or rivers , maybe fine the shiz out of them companys who are at fault Quote
Guest NamasteMushroom Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 If a trucker is hauling bailsof hay does that make him a farmer? At least you looked at the web page though, kudo's to you! Look @ me spin If a trucker hauled bails of hay, marketed it, was a part of the wheat board, stored it, and marketed other grain products....I would consider it a part of the farming industry. Replace 'company' with the word 'industry' - there's my spin. And it doesn't matter- there's a bunch of oil in a river up north. Quote
jonn Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 it makes no diff at all on whose fault it is , it happen and it's still a spill of oil on a water way , thats all my point is , maybe next time it might be into the bow river , how would we all like to see that happen , think about if it had happen and went into the oldman river or for gods sake even the crowsnest , it's done now and the clean up is happening , i'd just like to see them at least make a effort and replace those pipes or do a better way around water or rivers , maybe fine the shiz out of them companys who are at fault I agree whole heartedly with what your saying. After the first one South of Zama and now this one, they should be fined and shut down. Theres no doubt in my mind that they are not following a prescibed maintanece scedule or following the regulations. However they wont be shut down, but I'm sure they will be heavily fined. As far as I'm conserned all the pipe lines around water should be exposed on piles and risers. That way they could have a visual inspection and preform particle tests to verify integrity. Quote
reevesr1 Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 BP last 5 years Just to clarify a previous point. BP went to -22% in one quarter in 2010. They ended up at -1.2% profit for the year. My mistake, I misread the chart (and I do think they got off really light on the gulf spill, though I hope they are not done paying as the lawsuits still have to go through). They are back up to 6-7ish%m which seems pretty standard for a super major. So to make their 25.7B in 2011, they had to spend roughly 360B, give or take a few B. So while the 25B number looks huge, when put in perspective of the spend, it ain't all it's cracked up to be. Let's put it in perspective of a small business, guiding for instance. Let's estimate 100 trips per year at $600 per trip after tip. 60k in the pocket. At an oil company profit margin, you would be the proud owner of around $4,000 for the season! It cost you $56,000 to make that $60,000 in revenue. That's a lot of broken fly rods. Hardly a business model you'd embrace. Obviously the scale of a major oil company is different, but they are not the profit machines everyone assumes they are. All anyone looks at is the 25B. They do not acknowledge the 100,000 or so employees and 1/3 of a Trillion spend it takes to get that 25B. Quote
Guest Sundancefisher Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 This thread is not about those issues, but what is most disturbing is that you use other dangers to wildlife and the environment to justiify the oil industries negligance. Spin Doctor Sun, FFC's Oil rep, expert in damage control, deflections, and disinformation. No the spin doctor occurs when individuals take an issue with one company and expand it to include an entire industrial sector. Certain people like to blow things out of proportion for effect...I prefer to look at these issues in a collaborative and constructive and cooperative approach. Those issues were brought up by others and I addressed the duck issue accordingly. No one likes that a midstreamer had a leaking pipe...regardless how fast they got on the problem. Everyone hopes for a speedy clean and understanding the root cause of the problem so it does not happen again. Cheers Sun Quote
Guest Sundancefisher Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 Deflection! Ones persons beer bottle glasses see a deflection...20/20 vision sees a fact. Plains is not an oil company like the original poster stated in his expletive way. Quote
Guest Sundancefisher Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 If a trucker hauled bails of hay, marketed it, was a part of the wheat board, stored it, and marketed other grain products....I would consider it a part of the farming industry. Replace 'company' with the word 'industry' - there's my spin. And it doesn't matter- there's a bunch of oil in a river up north. LOL Yes you are spinning in a circle for sure. By your own statement and stretch...gas stations are also evil cause they are part now of the "Oil Industry". So is Walmart as they sell plastics and polyester clothes made from oil. Enmax distributes NG so they are evil...so is Futureshop whose products use oil for manufacturing and whose store is powered by the "Oil Industry". You don't get it...but you are catching on. The spin you and others put on is lumping a huge industry as one entity when just one company did a bad thing. You can't do that justifiably to make any sense. You can't blame the oil "company" that drilled the well and sold it into a transportation line for the failures of the company (Plains) that had the breach. Similarily you can't blame your neighbor in Edmonton for an accident that happens in Lethbridge when their car is in their driveway at the time. Both cars and part of the automotive industry, but not the guilty party. I am sorry if you don't understand where we are coming from when looking at your arguments. Cheers Sun Quote
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