Todays Debate

[rehsifylf]

Wasn't there a guy awhile back that killed someone and went to jail for it, then returned and had a long career in the NHL? Course he played in a city where more fans had a criminal record than had all four front teeth.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Wasn't there a guy awhile back that killed someone and went to jail for it, then returned and had a long career in the NHL? Course he played in a city where more fans had a criminal record than had all four front teeth.

 

If I recall...Craig Mctavish did one stupid, stupid drunk driving episode that ended in a death. He came back to society...played hockey and I can't say that it was bad that he did.

 

I was going to mention that too...or maybe you were thinking someone else?

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Regardless to what Frost may have done to him hiring someone to kill someone else is still against the law.

 

Like I said before if it was you or me or any jo blow then we would have the books throwen at us, why is Denton diffrent?

 

Here is another example, Linsay Lohan was pulled over for drinking and driving with a suspended licence, and then when they checked the vechicle they found cocaine inside the vechicle. What did she get, a fine and have to go to a country club for rehab. If it was you or me we would be throwen in jail for driving with a suspend licence, driving under the influnce, and also charged with drug possesion, and most likely have to do a piss test and then get charged with internal possession of a drug. Why are we diffrent from other people. It should be the same regardless to who you are.

 

The human emotion is to seek revenge. Unfortunately that rarely does anything except breed hatred and contempt. Raising or having to live with someone that hates society does little to help society.

 

I understand your feelings totally. I also have to feel someone for anyone that has been abused. While there is no...NO excuse for trying to hurt someone...now that he faced the music...PAID his debt to society and felt the full consequence of the law...I want him to better himself...not stay the same and certainly not get worse.

 

You are arguing that his time in jail was not sufficient. Well I say take a step back and acknowledge that he did the time that society deemed appropriate. Don't blame him for the sentence. I personally would not want 1 day in jail.

 

Maybe you can consider forgiving him for his sins and hope that he will do what he must...prove that he is a better man than he was.

 

Sun

[SteveM]

The human emotion is to seek revenge. Unfortunately that rarely does anything except breed hatred and contempt. Raising or having to live with someone that hates society does little to help society.

 

I understand your feelings totally. I also have to feel someone for anyone that has been abused. While there is no...NO excuse for trying to hurt someone...now that he faced the music...PAID his debt to society and felt the full consequence of the law...I want him to better himself...not stay the same and certainly not get worse.

 

You are arguing that his time in jail was not sufficient. Well I say take a step back and acknowledge that he did the time that society deemed appropriate. Don't blame him for the sentence. I personally would not want 1 day in jail.

 

Maybe you can consider forgiving him for his sins and hope that he will do what he must...prove that he is a better man than he was.

 

Sun

 

"The human emotion is to seek revenge. Unfortunately that rarely does anything except breed hatred and contempt."

 

This is about perch, isn't it? When it comes to perch, you believe in capital punishment for trespassing in a trout lake!

BTW,I'm available next weekend to help some of 'em walk 'The Green Mile'.

 

[Guest Sundancefisher]

"The human emotion is to seek revenge. Unfortunately that rarely does anything except breed hatred and contempt."

 

This is about perch, isn't it? When it comes to perch, you believe in capital punishment for trespassing in a trout lake!

BTW,I'm available next weekend to help some of 'em walk 'The Green Mile'.

 

 

shhhhushh....psst.... can i tell you a secret? i see dead perch....they talk to me...they seek me out...does that make me crazy?

 

 

...and I think I can see them next weekend...

[hydropsyche]

Revenge is not the only motivation. Protection of society is one too.

 

The human emotion is to seek revenge.

 

...now that he faced the music...PAID his debt to society and felt the full consequence of the law...I want him to better himself...not stay the same and certainly not get worse.

 

Very laudable. Do you mind if I send an email to the John Howard Society stating Sundance would be a perfect community for their next residence? Maybe you can rent out your basement? Chances are you won't be meeting any hockey players, but what the heck, I'm sure they are all fine upstanding citizens.

 

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Revenge is not the only motivation. Protection of society is one too.

 

 

 

Very laudable. Do you mind if I send an email to the John Howard Society stating Sundance would be a perfect community for their next residence? Maybe you can rent out your basement? Chances are you won't be meeting any hockey players, but what the heck, I'm sure they are all fine upstanding citizens.

 

Now you are talking about trust versus a chance to play hockey. Do I trust this guy won't put a hit on me living in my basement? How about a pedophile in yours? These are black and white examples but I am not sure if you are pertaining to just this guy. I suspect many would be fine having him living in there community. I for one would not complain. A repeat rapist...I would fight to keep him/her out.

 

In your world...what is the option...only death for any crime?

[Weedy1]

Some points to consider:

 

-One in ten Canadians have a criminal record.

-You may work with people who a criminals.

-You may have criminals in your own family and not know it. (How many of you checked to see if your wife had a criminal record before marrying her?)

-Those fine upstanding citizens you have had wonderful friendships for years with may be criminals.

-The guy next door may be a convicted rapist. How would you know?

 

[hydropsyche]

In your world...what is the option...only death for any crime?

 

Please......

 

Here is an example of our Justice system. There are many, many more.

 

The problem I have with more then half of the respondents to this poll totally forgiving this guy and thinking it is perfectly fine for an ex-murderer to return to the NHL is, in today's world, I'm seeing more and more concern and pity for the perpetrators of violent crimes then the victims. Mis-guided compassion, IMHO.

 

This guy was unsuccessful. If he had found a real hitman, someone would be dead (for the rest of their life, unable to play hockey at any level, even if they were able to say pretty please).

 

So, no. In my world, it wouldn't be death for any crime. It would be turning the tables back to a time when it was the criminals who feared society and its victims, not the other way around.

 

[robert]

yep, he's done his time - I don't think anyone questions that.

 

BUT

 

Did he do enough time for what he's done? I don't care what a judge says - our justice system speaks volumes about them.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Some points to consider:

 

-One in ten Canadians have a criminal record.

-You may work with people who a criminals.

-You may have criminals in your own family and not know it. (How many of you checked to see if your wife had a criminal record before marrying her?)

-Those fine upstanding citizens you have had wonderful friendships for years with may be criminals.

-The guy next door may be a convicted rapist. How would you know?

 

Well...I am positive my wife does not have a criminal record...some just figure she is insane...for marrying me

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Please......

 

Here is an example of our Justice system. There are many, many more.

 

The problem I have with more then half of the respondents to this poll totally forgiving this guy and thinking it is perfectly fine for an ex-murderer to return to the NHL is, in today's world, I'm seeing more and more concern and pity for the perpetrators of violent crimes then the victims. Mis-guided compassion, IMHO.

 

This guy was unsuccessful. If he had found a real hitman, someone would be dead (for the rest of their life, unable to play hockey at any level, even if they were able to say pretty please).

 

So, no. In my world, it wouldn't be death for any crime. It would be turning the tables back to a time when it was the criminals who feared society and its victims, not the other way around.

 

So in this particular instance...regardless as to whether he was abused or not...there is no excuse for murder...what do you think the rest of his life should be like after his jail time was over?

 

Should he NOT go to university?

 

Should he NOT further his education?

 

Should he NOT get the best job his education and skills should allow?

 

Would you rather see him downtown...looking for butts...begging for a dollar...looking to score some Lysol...sleeping in a box under a tree? Would that make every feel better that society has been protected to the best of our ability?

 

I see lots of people complaining...please explain what you see the remainder of his life's punishment to entail? Please elaborate.

 

Criminals have never feared society. Not sure where that came from. Regular criminals are not bright enough to fear anything...hence they almost always eventually get caught. Please explain this also.

[hydropsyche]

I've already said it but I'll repeat it again (similar to you having to repeat "but its been warming since the last ice age").

 

He should NOT be playing in the NHL (the whole context of this thread), being revered by society as an example of "you can do whatever you want and you will be forgiven". Monkey see, monkey can attempt murder without any consequences other then doing minuscule time. If Weedy's stats are accurate, 10% of the population isn't picking butts off the ground. In your mind you are relegating them to that status, not me.

 

Criminals fearing society. Its called deterrence. Its not a hard concept to grasp. You can argue whether it works or not but if there was absolutely no jails and no societal ostracization, would crime go up or down?

 

You seem to be very supportive of criminals. Does Weedy know something about you I don't?

[Guest Sundancefisher]

I've already said it but I'll repeat it again (similar to you having to repeat "but its been warming since the last ice age").

 

He should NOT be playing in the NHL (the whole context of this thread), being revered by society as an example of "you can do whatever you want and you will be forgiven". Monkey see, monkey can attempt murder without any consequences other then doing minuscule time. If Weedy's stats are accurate, 10% of the population isn't picking butts off the ground. In your mind you are relegating them to that status, not me.

 

Criminals fearing society. Its called deterrence. Its not a hard concept to grasp. You can argue whether it works or not but if there was absolutely no jails and no societal ostracization, would crime go up or down?

 

You seem to be very supportive of criminals. Does Weedy know something about you I don't?

 

Look up Sundancefisher in the criminal data bases lol.

 

There are two points here that are divergent from what I was talking about. I did not see this purely as discussing the NHL but rather the concept of:

 

1. Getting a University education and using his hockey skills to help pay for that.

 

2. Being allowed to play in the NHL again.

 

I think the first point is great. I think he should get the chance. If he graduated and got a business degree or what have you...more power to him.

 

As for the second point...I agree...he should not be in the NHL. I thought Craig MacTavish also should never have played after killing someone. He did and for all accounts he proved a good role model to many. I don't think he caused people to drink and drive and kill others. That being said...I personally would not like him to play. Betman would probably agree he is too mixed up a kid to play again. But if his luck turned...he did well in school...dazzeled everyone on the ice...if he had the chance to play in the NHL I would not protest. If I could vote...I would vote no. In his particular case under the circumstance I would not strongly oppose it.

 

Anyways...I think we are in relative agreement. I was focusing more on the education component...you were focusing more on the NHL career perspective. He is only looking to play university hockey right now to help pay for education most likely.

[bhurt]

First of all Danton did not go back to St. MAry's Univiserity in Halifax to get a education, only reason he enrolled is because of a loop hole in the rules, which would allow him to play for a max. of 3 years. Lets get real if he could of played in the NHL you really think he would of gone back to University, I think not, saying he is trying to get a education is nothing but a smoke screen to make it sound like its okay.

 

As I see it he is stealing time from other students that are there for real reasons and not just to play hockey

 

For more information

 

http://www.thestar.com/sports/college/article/750047

 

Here is also a small write up about his career and you can see he has had other problems other then the recent ones, he's had problems with his family, and NJ which was the cause of him beeing traded to St. Louis. THere are more problems then we think.

 

Selected 135th overall by the New Jersey Devils in the 2000 NHL Entry Draft, Danton was a left winger for the St. Louis Blues, who traded a 3rd round draft pick to New Jersey to obtain him. He played 68 games for the Blues in the 2003–04 season. While with the Devils organization, he changed his last name from Jefferson to Danton after becoming estranged from his family. He admitted he adopted the surname "Danton" from the name of a 13-year old boy at David Frost's hockey camp, because the name sounded "cool". He also feuded with New Jersey general manager Lou Lamoriello and was suspended by the team, prompting his eventual trade to St. Louis.[1]

 

During the 2000 Memorial Cup in Halifax, Jefferson commented in the press that Brad Richards wouldn't last five games in the Ontario Hockey League (OHL)[2] and later refused to shake Richards' hand after he had been named tournament MVP.[3]

 

Danton took university correspondence courses at Queen's University while imprisoned.

 

 

So as you see he already had a free paied for university courses while in jail and he wants more education, I think he needs to find the money to do that, also while we are talking about money, where is the money he made while playing in the NHL, if he pissed it away its his fault and he needs to find the money other ways and not take away from students that really could use that money to go to university.

 

 

 

[hydropsyche]

Anyways...I think we are in relative agreement. I was focusing more on the education component...you were focusing more on the NHL career perspective. He is only looking to play university hockey right now to help pay for education most likely.

 

You're right. We are. I was focusing on the NHL and arguing they should have some kind of ethic's rules. I don't know where the line should be drawn but it should be drawn somewhere. Does anyone know if they have one? Killing someone in a car accident didn't have the same intent, so I would give MacTavish a second chance.

 

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I used to hang out with a guy that robbed convenience stores at gunpoint. I didn't know it at the time. He just showed up with all this money. He was a good guy. I was friends with a guy that ended up being murdered in jail. I've personally been "swarmed" and ended up in the hospital (totally unprovoked. *ssholes looking to kick someone's butt). So I'm quite familiar with the seedier side of life and what motivates them (and what deters them).

 

I believe deterrence isn't there anymore and that leads to people not wanting to testify (they're going to be out in 3 mo) which leads to them joining gangs (protection, payback) which leads to a whole lot of other nastiness (or they end up huddled in fear). I'm for rehabilitation but only second to protection and whatever the word "Justice" means. Lock the violent criminals away for a long, long, long time and leave the pot smokers and jaywalkers alone. After all, when you think about it, what is worse then violence? And most of the time (insanity being the exception), violence is a learned response.

 

Anyway, I digress but don’t take my posts as being retribution based lacking compassion. I have lots of compassion.

 

[Guest Sundancefisher]

You're right. We are. I was focusing on the NHL and arguing they should have some kind of ethic's rules. I don't know where the line should be drawn but it should be drawn somewhere. Does anyone know if they have one? Killing someone in a car accident didn't have the same intent, so I would give MacTavish a second chance.

 

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I used to hang out with a guy that robbed convenience stores at gunpoint. I didn't know it at the time. He just showed up with all this money. He was a good guy. I was friends with a guy that ended up being murdered in jail. I've personally been "swarmed" and ended up in the hospital (totally unprovoked. *ssholes looking to kick someone's butt). So I'm quite familiar with the seedier side of life and what motivates them (and what deters them).

 

I believe deterrence isn't there anymore and that leads to people not wanting to testify (they're going to be out in 3 mo) which leads to them joining gangs (protection, payback) which leads to a whole lot of other nastiness (or they end up huddled in fear). I'm for rehabilitation but only second to protection and whatever the word "Justice" means. Lock the violent criminals away for a long, long, long time and leave the pot smokers and jaywalkers alone. After all, when you think about it, what is worse then violence? And most of the time (insanity being the exception), violence is a learned response.

 

Anyway, I digress but don’t take my posts as being retribution based lacking compassion. I have lots of compassion.

 

I figured you were thinking NHL. I was looking from the poll's perspective about just playing at St Mary's and going to University. So that is now clear for both of us.

 

Some people like MADD would say anyone getting into a car drunk is intentionally looking to kill someone. That is a ideological debate of sorts...but I agree with them. Pulling a trigger or driving drunk...means the same to me.

 

I agree...the justice system should be harsher in many circumstances. I do think the NHL looks very serious at convictions and the right to play. I can't remember MacTavish's exact method but if I recall he showed tons of remorse...volunteered as a spokeperson etc. I guess we can see what this guy did. I personally see MacTavish's situation and conviction as way worse then Denton's.

[calkid75]

Well I can say if I was hiring, I would give this guy a job. I admire people who will stand up for themselves. This country not only needs capital punishment, it also needs personal property rights. Criminals in this county do not fear our legal system, the only people you fear it is those who dear stand up to those criminals. People should be encouraged to stand up for themselves, if more did there would be less victims. Criminals would then have some hesitation. No country is truely free, without the right of its citizens to protect not only themselves put the family and PROPERTY by any and all means.

 

So I say this guy should be allowed to play hockey as he has paid his debt to our JOKE of a legal system.

 

 

If I lost my job because I was convicted of trying to hire someone to kill someone else then shame on me and YES I do deserve to lose my job.

 

Infact since I thought I had the right to deciede weather someone should live or die then most of my priviliages I enjoy should also be stripped.

 

The simple fact is this isn't about a dui or something stupid, this is about someone who thought they had the right, regardless of the mental anguish he might of been going through, to deceide weather someone should lived or die.

 

Do we know live in a society where if we are mentally abused we have the right to seek capatail punishment on that person.

 

Its time for Denton to join the rest of us, you think he would be reduced to minial wage, I highly doubt that, he will probably go on and write a book about his troubled times, and make a boat load of money. As I saw from his interviews is nothing but poiliticing himself back into the NHL. Just like Flurey did with his book and his blog entry, great way to create public sympthay or empathy, either which way you looking at what they are pimpin out.