Skagit Recommendations

[Bowcane]

I have a Scott LS2 1206 which I'm looking for a skagit system. Rio recommends a 350gr head, but I've heard of guy's using up to 450gr on this rod (Speypages), which I think would be a bit heavy and clunky especially when using some of the fast sink tips. Opinions? Anyone have this rod and tried it? The rod handles various lines quite well. It likes a mid spey the best, however, the larger weighted flies use here are difficult to cast, especially I find with water borne anchor casts. Should I still use a leader about 1 1/2X to 2X rod length? Rio also has something new called a 'skagit flyline' which appears to be a head and running line all in one. Has anyone tried this? Being relatively new to the Calgary area which local shop has a good spey selection? Most seem to treat it as a curiosity and have only a limited knowledge of it.

 

Thanks

 

RB

[headscan]

I've been casting one of the Rio Skagit fly lines that I picked up from Whistler for a few weeks and find it works well. It just means you don't have to get a running line in addition to the shooting head. If you don't have a need to switch heads with a single running line then I think it's a great option. The running line may not shoot quite as well as something like slick shooter, but you don't get the line memory and coiling issues in the cold like you do with the mono running lines. The head of the line is yellow and the load point is black, so it's pretty user friendly.

 

Both Fish Tales and Bow River Troutfitters carry Rio spey lines and can probably order a line for you if they don't have it in stock. Otherwise Brian from Whistler Fly Fishing is great to deal with if you don't mind ordering from BC. He can probably help you out with a grain weight recommendation for your rod as well.

[ogilvie]

That rod will handle 450 very easily ,however,you mentioned the flies used there are on the large side....not really. Skagit lines are designed to lift off with 4-6" intruders attached to 12-15' of T-14... Too much for the Bow Generally. Headscan is right about the line/running line...a rio Skagit fly line combines the head and running line as One....the CND Skagit is a head,couple that with your favorite running line. Useing the Rio Skagit system on the bow will often require that you use a cheater to reduce the Splash and lengthen the loop formation . I have fished that rod with the 530 CND Skagit matched with a 16' length of type 6 sinking ...very smooth and effortless. There are other options also available such as SA Short head Spey and their version of the Skagit fly line. Beulah's Elixir Spey lines ar also a great casting/fishing line that require Poly Tips to perform to their peak.. The 7/8 Spey version is 435 grains and the 8/9 version is 520 grains. During a recent trip to Clagary we were casting the 6/7 Elixir Spey line(385 grain) matched to a 6/7 Beulah Spey and I found it to be exact if fishing a small fly;but needed the next line size up to pump out the bigger flies. Those little rods don't really have to be overloaded.

The newish Skagit Lines from line manufacturers,are designed with a more friendly Taper on both ends,making casting a bit more fun and less "splashy"...although once you get used to any skagit system casting get fairly easy and very effective. Beulah has just released their Tonic Spey lines at this past week-ends Spey-O-Rama in San Francisco and very well received. This trend will continue as more line manufacturers realize that there is indeed a market for smoother presentation fly lines.

Good luck and have fun...

[headscan]

Useing the Rio Skagit system on the bow will often require that you use a cheater to reduce the Splash and lengthen the loop formation .

 

I thought the purpose of a cheater was to bring the length of the skagit head up to the 3-3.5x rod length rule?

[maxwell]

yea i was under the same impression for cheaters.. they give u that extra lentgh.... cant see how they would increase more stealth...... skagit is all about the braun i figure... good for mega streamer rigs

 

i would recommend the rio and if you are tossing bigger tips and flies u might want too stay on teh 250-400 graain window compared too maxing it out in teh 450 range.. unles u dig the mega deep flex feel....

[Guest bigbadbrent]

Where and what are you planning on fishing for? I can tell you what i toss on the bow, but its not going to be the same as what i'd toss on the coast

 

scandi is not a bad idea for the bow, since you won't normally be tossing T14. I use my scandi normally with 15 feet of t6, and can cast it 100 feet without thinking and have only spey cast for 6 months

[ogilvie]

That is true.......and at the same time this will allow you to deliver or manufacture tighter loops which is really the key to successful Spey Casts in most cases. If a 27' head is manipulated to form a tight loop it is actually difficult at times because of physical constraints. It only stands to reason that a longer belly will form tighter loops...thus the cheaters. Before the Skagit lines came about we used to use a Compensator section to assit in loop formation ,createing a relationship between line speed ,lift off and anchor. What some of the line manufacturers have done,includeing Rio is develope or re-develope large bellied Skagit lines with friendlier tapers. There has to be a middle of the road design for most casters.

CND Skagit Heads are more tapered as I mentioned....made by Rio under License...these lines roll over much more smoothly and with less efort...it's the tapers. But a funny thing about tapers...we can only do so much. Scientific Anglers brought out the original XLT long bellied line that had a front taper of 40' or so(very fine floating line);the belly was large enough to create a lift off of such a long taper with little effort under a good casters command. These lines were the ones used for competitions until recently. Take off the front tapers and you are left with a large Skagitish belly in the 45' range.

My favorite Skagit line is actually the CND version...I don't know why,the coatings are very similar to Rio's main stay Skagit...but just the way they handle... Once I get the New Tonic lines in my hands and play a bit I will send a few to Calgary so you casters can play with them

C

[headscan]

Where and what are you planning on fishing for? I can tell you what i toss on the bow, but its not going to be the same as what i'd toss on the coast

 

scandi is not a bad idea for the bow, since you won't normally be tossing T14. I use my scandi normally with 15 feet of t6, and can cast it 100 feet without thinking and have only spey cast for 6 months

 

Yeah, having both a scandi and skagit isn't a bad idea at all. I use the scandi line for dries and lighter stuff and the skagit for streamers and heavy stuff. You can toss heavier stuff with a scandi, but I find that if there's a strong wind the skagit has enough weight and momentum in the head that it'll still turn a big fly over.

[Bowcane]

Islandguy, you are correct with the fly size issue, for me a 3" fly is large from where I'm from. We (I) would typical handle those situations with a larger rod, plus the river conditions are very different. We would use 4-6" tubes in the Niagara gorge below the whirlpool. I may try customizing a XLT as you suggested into a head about 32-36' long. I would think a 7 would be a good starting point. They are widely available back east (and cheap, $20) as they were pushed on beginners by unknowing retailers, guess they wanted to be stars right off.

 

BigBadBrent, for the purpose of this discussion mostly the Bow within or near city limits. However below three rivers and more northern locales are possibilities. I like the scandi idea, never thought of that.

 

I don't have much experience with the 'T' stuff, as it really wasn't the eastern thing. Weighted flies, split shot(nasty), poly leaders or shortish lengths of courtland lead core sink tip (1-4'). Long leaders worked 90% of the time as rivers have relatively placid flows there. Think Red Deer.

 

The Scott rod matches the average fish size so its nearly perfect for that, but finding a line system which works on that rod to reach them, depth and current wise is the problem. I have tried my WC5/6 on the rod, however, the combination of weighted fly, long leader and/or tip, I believe is causing an issue with excessive anchor 'stick' which then causes a whole host of problems. Oddly, shooting line isn't (rockets off across the river), just casting with a fixed length (it just kind of flops out there without much energy). I must add that this is very much a streamer issue for mid river fish, mostly in the 'over-wintering' spots, nymphs, wets, summer streamers and skating dries all go according to text book. Maybe I'm just too picky (I'm catching fish) with what my forward cast looks like, or perhaps its technique.

[ogilvie]

Islandguy, you are correct with the fly size issue, for me a 3" fly is large from where I'm from. We (I) would typical handle those situations with a larger rod, plus the river conditions are very different. We would use 4-6" tubes in the Niagara gorge below the whirlpool. I may try customizing a XLT as you suggested into a head about 32-36' long. I would think a 7 would be a good starting point. They are widely available back east (and cheap, $20) as they were pushed on beginners by unknowing retailers, guess they wanted to be stars right off.

 

BigBadBrent, for the purpose of this discussion mostly the Bow within or near city limits. However below three rivers and more northern locales are possibilities. I like the scandi idea, never thought of that.

 

I don't have much experience with the 'T' stuff, as it really wasn't the eastern thing. Weighted flies, split shot(nasty), poly leaders or shortish lengths of courtland lead core sink tip (1-4'). Long leaders worked 90% of the time as rivers have relatively placid flows there. Think Red Deer.

 

The Scott rod matches the average fish size so its nearly perfect for that, but finding a line system which works on that rod to reach them, depth and current wise is the problem. I have tried my WC5/6 on the rod, however, the combination of weighted fly, long leader and/or tip, I believe is causing an issue with excessive anchor 'stick' which then causes a whole host of problems. Oddly, shooting line isn't (rockets off across the river), just casting with a fixed length (it just kind of flops out there without much energy). I must add that this is very much a streamer issue for mid river fish, mostly in the 'over-wintering' spots, nymphs, wets, summer streamers and skating dries all go according to text book. Maybe I'm just too picky (I'm catching fish) with what my forward cast looks like, or perhaps its technique.

 

This is a very good thread....understanding where we once were and where we are now at is key to understanding the "Modern Day Needs".BTW...I know the Whirlpool well...

When Rio began de

signing the "Skagit Line" it was out of the needs of the many casters on the PNW Coastal waterways that had to cut/splice and re-invent the wheel in order to effectively cast ,deliver and get down large heavy flies to Steelhead in big water flows and ,as well,in the deeper canyon pools and runs.It's not that we never had "skagit lines it's that we never had "manufactured lines". Rio answered the call very well and along the way realized that the door has been opened to many more casters because of this....and that's a good thing. All line manufacturers are now on board.

The Scandanavians have a much better grasp of this than we,or at least did,Scandi' lines are now getting their due and becoming very popular ,and rightly so. There are many ways to skin the cat ,personally, I have come aaround once again to the use of Floating lines ,long leaders and smaller heavy flies for most of my fishing...when the water is big there is no question of what to cast! IMO I think the easiest casting /fishing line I have cast with the 2 hander are the Beulah Elixir lines matched up with a proper Poly Tip. 100' casts are easy to accomplish,manipulateing all the spey casts is not a chore and that means better time spent on the water. The greatest majority of waterways in this country that really need massive Skagit Lines are here on the West Coast,however,in good hands are an absolute fishing tool that can be used almost everywhere. We also have to remember that the developement of the Skagit Lines was critically key to the lack of room behind us,ie: canyons,rain forests and the like. Short heavy bellies allowed us to form quick powerful loops that move the line,tip and fly effectively. These line developements are here to stay,we will be buying more lines,and having many more breakthroughs. I have yet to really work with the new Beulah Elixir lines just intorduced ...but these will be a smoother variation of a stretched and tapered Skagit Style line...fun ahead.

[Bowcane]

Islandguy, what is curious to me is that Skagits are becoming the go to system in Great lakes steelhead rivers. Why I dont know, as I said, they are generally smallish, gentle rivers with back cast room. Except that Niagara! (it is something around 5000+ CMS and goes up and down 10-20' depending on power generation) I always did like the feel and handling of a traditional style line.

[pkk]

Islandguy, what is curious to me is that Skagits are becoming the go to system in Great lakes steelhead rivers. Why I dont know, as I said, they are generally smallish, gentle rivers with back cast room. Except that Niagara! (it is something around 5000+ CMS and goes up and down 10-20' depending on power generation) I always did like the feel and handling of a traditional style line.

 

generally smallish rivers would require shorter casts (50-70 ft), therefore a shorter bellied line (skagit/scandi) is a better suited line. Why use a traditional 70 - 90 ft belly when you cant cast the full line. Also skagits were designed so one could cast heavy large flies and sink tips. It is just a bonus that you need less room behind with a skagit (less line to keep off the water)

[ogilvie]

Islandguy, what is curious to me is that Skagits are becoming the go to system in Great lakes steelhead rivers. Why I dont know, as I said, they are generally smallish, gentle rivers with back cast room. Except that Niagara! (it is something around 5000+ CMS and goes up and down 10-20' depending on power generation) I always did like the feel and handling of a traditional style line.

As PKK states,smaller waters can take advantage of smallish lines;scandi and skagit type..however,the truth is that the Skagit has entitled many more casters to enter the world of Spey casts much more easily and of course more quickly,and that is the key. The great lakes area is of course going to take off as it now is showing signs of doing. And of course the hype over the Skagit system has left Rio in a real conundrum of too much demand ... Back East you will see more SA and AirFlo being used ,some CND and of Course the Rio lines are now becoming common place. The last part of the Continent to really show signs of Spey favor is the Maritimes. Traditional Atlantic fishermen are still prone to casting 2 pc rods in most of the areas.Something to do with the economy and tradition. As with all specialty products ie: CND,Beulah and a few others it takes time to get attention away from the main stay products...

I have fished the Ganny,Notti, Grand, Maitland, Beaver,Niagara,French and many more rivers in Ontario and realize that there are Two Schools appearing on the Scene ...Switch Rods are doing very well there as are the smaller Two Handers matched up with various Scandi and Skagit systems... A good point here is that there is a better dry fly fishery there than many of us realize...I will be doing several float trips on the Saugeen again this summer, looking for the Big Boys on the Fly(Musky). As we all know ,Spwey Casters need to have a fair variety of lines or at least have operational lines to suit the needs at hand. The Shooting lines such as Scandi,Skagit and the Elixir type can give you almost everything you need. So now we will see where the common sense goes when the Elixir lines are available as heads...so we can have our favorite running line(Snowbee Salmon), looped to whichever head we choose...we can fish loud and Bold(skagit) short and sweet(Scandi) or delightful and delicate(Elixir)...make your pick! Although Long Belly lines are a must

 

 

C

[lff]

As for now, I'm fishing a 12'6" 5/6 with a Skagit 400 grain, and I prefer adding the 5' cheater fom the old 7/8/9 package works well for me..... I do like the Scandi lines as BBB knows. As for what works best for you, find some boys that'll meet you and try what feels better. My .02 worth.

T

[ogilvie]

As for now, I'm fishing a 12'6" 5/6 with a Skagit 400 grain, and I prefer adding the 5' cheater fom the old 7/8/9 package works well for me..... I do like the Scandi lines as BBB knows. As for what works best for you, find some boys that'll meet you and try what feels better. My .02 worth.

T

a 12'6" 5/6 is likely to appreciate a more even load in the 400-450 range..it really isn't necessary to overload a rod at all....casting/fishing within the grain window recommended for a rod is a good choice...

IMO

C

[Guest bigbadbrent]

As for now, I'm fishing a 12'6" 5/6 with a Skagit 400 grain, and I prefer adding the 5' cheater fom the old 7/8/9 package works well for me..... I do like the Scandi lines as BBB knows. As for what works best for you, find some boys that'll meet you and try what feels better. My .02 worth.

T

 

heh, could be a reason i started with a scandi eh (the rod is finally being sent in..hopefully they'll not have anything of the sort and send me a z-axis)

[Bowcane]

Well, I think I'll go with the SA skagit 'system' in their so called 6 wieght.(I believe its about 425 gr if I recall correctly) Apparently you get the head and some tips with it. As 'Islandguy' said this is a very interesting post, I've often wondered why thier isn't a book or manual about spey casting which tells you how to put it all together, explains everything, etc. "Spey casting and two handed rods for dummies" would be a good title, such as those computer/how to books by the same name. I know even after 7-8 years speying something still trips me up!

[headscan]

I've often wondered why thier isn't a book or manual about spey casting which tells you how to put it all together, explains everything, etc. "Spey casting and two handed rods for dummies" would be a good title, such as those computer/how to books by the same name.

 

I had the exact same thought when I started out. You can find enough books and videos that show you how to cast, but very little on putting things together. How is a beginner supposed to know when to use polyleaders versus a regular leader and what length they should be? I ended up having to put it together through searching various forums, finding the odd article here and there, and finally posting questions for the things I couldn't find answers to or figure out on my own. Even then it seems that sometimes you'll get a completely different answer from each person who replies (and yes, I understand that sometimes that's because there's a lot of personal preference involved).

[ogilvie]

There will be a DVD and small book on just this issue...on another topic though,I would suggest that the greatest variations come from the labelling of the rods...SIngle handed rods,Switch Rods and Two Handers all rated by grain weights yet all labelled differently... another issue is the rod lengths,actions,casters style and so on. A great beginning would be to (as some have) have the recommended grain weights on the rods. And likely the largest issue is trying to cast to the other side of the river all the time...so it seems to put us at an immediate disadvantage of the unknown and the Male Ego!

IMO

C

[Bowcane]

There will be a DVD and small book on just this issue...on another topic though,I would suggest that the greatest variations come from the labelling of the rods...SIngle handed rods,Switch Rods and Two Handers all rated by grain weights yet all labelled differently... another issue is the rod lengths,actions,casters style and so on. A great beginning would be to (as some have) have the recommended grain weights on the rods. And likely the largest issue is trying to cast to the other side of the river all the time...so it seems to put us at an immediate disadvantage of the unknown and the Male Ego!

IMO

C

Yes the line rating system of two handers is one of biggest hurdles for beginners, even more so for seasoned single hand casters who are entrenched in a way of thinking. Pre 2002? rods still use the AFTMA single hand rating(40' rather than 30' I believe) as do some European rods, the continental guys are switching over but the British are still using the old system. Guys will get say new a 7 wieght spey and think that a #7SH line should work (my 7 wieght cane spey works magically with a 7 wieght steelhead taper cause it's old and British), but in reality they end up with some thing in the 11-12SH range. Power rating is some thing else too, is it a 7 or a 12? Castability, same thing. We should have used grain weights right off and avoided confusion, but, we must not forget that for any given line size, the heads will have different grainage whether they are short, mid, or long belly lines. So a rod must have ratings for all three, plus skagit and scandi ratings. Perhaps, hopefully, as spey casting evolves we will develop a 'K.I.S.S.' system to match lines to rods.

 

Trying to cast to the other side of the river right off, and all the time, is kind of missing the point and original reason of spey casting. People just get the wrong idea, to a point, when they see Simon do a single spey and shoot line across the Snake river in Rio's videos. Both in SH and DH, distance sells rods, and lines, and unfortunatly we end up with just more stuff to cast flies with rather than fish with. When was the last time you bought a rod and the dealer showed you how good it cast 20' of line? How about that DT vs WF debate? My $.02.

 

RB

[ogilvie]

Yes the line rating system of two handers is one of biggest hurdles for beginners, even more so for seasoned single hand casters who are entrenched in a way of thinking. Pre 2002? rods still use the AFTMA single hand rating(40' rather than 30' I believe) as do some European rods, the continental guys are switching over but the British are still using the old system. Guys will get say new a 7 wieght spey and think that a #7SH line should work (my 7 wieght cane spey works magically with a 7 wieght steelhead taper cause it's old and British), but in reality they end up with some thing in the 11-12SH range. Power rating is some thing else too, is it a 7 or a 12? Castability, same thing. We should have used grain weights right off and avoided confusion, but, we must not forget that for any given line size, the heads will have different grainage whether they are short, mid, or long belly lines. So a rod must have ratings for all three, plus skagit and scandi ratings. Perhaps, hopefully, as spey casting evolves we will develop a 'K.I.S.S.' system to match lines to rods.

 

Trying to cast to the other side of the river right off, and all the time, is kind of missing the point and original reason of spey casting. People just get the wrong idea, to a point, when they see Simon do a single spey and shoot line across the Snake river in Rio's videos. Both in SH and DH, distance sells rods, and lines, and unfortunatly we end up with just more stuff to cast flies with rather than fish with. When was the last time you bought a rod and the dealer showed you how good it cast 20' of line? How about that DT vs WF debate? My $.02.

 

RB

Yeah you are quite right,.....I particularly like the Snowbee 2 colour WF Floating line for many reasons...First it fishes extremely well,lovely long front taper about 8', 23' belly and 11 ' rear taper...splendid ratio for smooth casting and fishing....the box is clearly marked with the grain weights at the 30' and the 44'...also,this line when loaded correctly will deliver the entire line on One pick up///no false casts normally...these are Polyurethane lines...excellent. The same is true for the Snowbee Spey Lines....but the confusion between NA and European rod makers still isn't clear...

 

My thoughts..have to go...Hockey started

C