San Juan Worms - Something To Think About

[birchy]

Picked up the new Fly Fusion at the Crowsnest Angler for the weekend Barnaby trip. I was reading Gary Borgers article "The Fish as Prey" and noticed something interesting - and definitely new to me.

 

In talking about how water absorbs wavelengths of light differentially, he mentions that red light is completely sucked up by 3 feet down, and by about 30 feet down, only a little bit of blue light remains.

 

Then he says "Thus a red fly below 3 feet looks dark gray."

 

First thing I thought was "huh! so you're telling me San Juan Worms look dark gray in >3 feet of water?!"

 

Was thinking about it some more and it seems to me like the actual aquatic worms that the SJW is imitating are that dark gray/green color.. don't believe I've ever seen a red one. So I guess.. the color change of the red SJW's more closely resembles the naturals than other colors?

 

Did any of you read this article? What are your thoughts on it?

[captrob]

It has always my impression that fish don't see color but shades of grey. An acquaintence of mine Aaron Martens is color blind and he firmly believes it is an advantage when picking the proper color combinations in the artificial baits he uses at tournaments. His tournament record and winnings says it all.

 

Anybody know scientifically if fish can see color beside shades of grey ?

[toolman]

Bow River Aquatic Worm...

[cheeler]

It has always my impression that fish don't see color but shades of grey. An acquaintence of mine Aaron Martens is color blind and he firmly believes it is an advantage when picking the proper color combinations in the artificial baits he uses at tournaments. His tournament record and winnings says it all.

 

Anybody know scientifically if fish can see color beside shades of grey ?

 

The same article Birchy's quoting says that they do, and is a good read to pick up for some other tips.

 

Of course, not all sjw's are fished in more than 3 feet of water.. you could also try making a blue worm to test out a theory as well.

[tbone]

"3 feet" - this is the first time Ive heard red disappears at 3 feet. It depends on how bright the day is and the water clarity, but I think 10 - 20ft is more reasonable for red. We actually did tests in physics class in a swimming pool and you could clearly see red was red down at the bottom of the deep end. I guarantee you that blue and green light can be seen well past 30 feet ?????

[SanJuanWorm]

^^^^ I agree Tbone.

 

Did they mention in the article that SJW's catch the biggest fish outta any river?

[ÜberFly]

"3 feet" - this is the first time Ive heard red disappears at 3 feet. It depends on how bright the day is and the water clarity, but I think 10 - 20ft is more reasonable for red. We actually did tests in physics class in a swimming pool and you could clearly see red was red down at the bottom of the deep end. I guarantee you that blue and green light can be seen well past 30 feet ?????

 

Did you turn the lights out in the pool?! As that would effect the visible light!

 

P

[toolman]

Light becomes attenuated as it penetrates deeper into the water column, meaning it loses intensity and if there are solid particles suspended in the water, it will also become refracted or scattered, as it hits the solids. The loss of intensity and refraction causes the color shift. Light does not lose it's intensity evenly across the color spectrum, with some colors fading more rapidly (red, orange), than other colors (blue, green), thus the color shift.

That cleared up, Blue SJW's might catch you fish at 30', but will probably catch very little at 6'...

[tbone]

Did you turn the lights out in the pool?! As that would effect the visible light!

 

P

 

It was an outdoor pool, mid day, just the sun for light. I've read a number of sources in text books, online and have been taught about what happens to colors underwater and this is the first time I've heard of someone saying red disappears at just 3 feet.

 

It really does depend upon water clarity though so maybe for the author of the article it was fading out much quicker.

[duanec]

there's actually a book available that goes into great detail about how fish see colour with some science behind it.

forget it's title - saw it in hansons before. i flipped thru it and alot seemed to be more focused on plug colours, salmon & steelhead. hansons said they sold a bunch.

i might be missing something here, but i've seen the red worms in the water, and so that is what i will try to match...if they are red at 2" that's good enough for me. i don't argue that at 3', 6' 10' the natural would appear to be different color [to varying degree due to all factors listed above], however so would my red SJW at that depth? i was taught to match what you see, not what you think a fish sees...if there are eating olive naturals then your fly should be representative of that, no matter what the depth [case in point: chironos].

 

i have used a multitude of SJW patterns and hues, as well as some of the golds, pinks & browns. i have never considered a blue or grey SJW, as i've never seen a blue natural. i've got my fave red patter/hue that is by far my most productive fly all year.

 

would you switch the color of the productive dry you are using after the sun has set/nearly dark [lighting conditions changed]?

[duanec]

i was taught to match what you see, not what you think a fish sees...

 

although an argument against that would be some wacky streamer patterns that are very effective

[duanec]

there's actually a book available that goes into great detail about how fish see colour with some science behind it.

forget it's title - saw it in hansons before. i flipped thru it and alot seemed to be more focused on plug colours, salmon & steelhead. hansons said they sold a bunch.

 

http://www.amazon.com/What-Fish-See-Unders...g/dp/1571881409

 

ok, 2 replies to my own reply. shutting up now...

[toolman]

Regardless of color shifts at varying depths of the water column, your flies need to match the colors of the aquatic inverts as they would appear to you when viewed above water. Then, when you fish your flys at any depth, the color shift will be similar or equal to, (depending on the refraction values of the tying materials), that of the naturals at the same depth/conditions.

 

So Birchy, that covers the color shift of flies viewed at 30' depth, but what if the trout was at 30' and looking up at the fly on the surface? Do you think that the color shift/view, would be the same? Would different species of trout, say Rainbows, Browns or Cutthroats, see the same thing?

Now think about that one folks...grin. Lets hear your thoughts...

[maxwell]

TM has got it... funny how light works.. read a few articles about this over the past few years and jsut peeped the one in fusion today at work... my number one sjw color aint red but red works.. same with a ton of other colors for juans.... size and sillouette is most important too me but matching colors of t bugs in your hand you see and find under the rocks does make it easier when fishing subsurface...

[Hawgstoppah]

I fish several different colors of san juans. Some are (much) better than red. *grin*

 

Blue isn't very good, though I have gotten fish on, blue, green, purple, brown, black, white (yes white), orange, yellow, and combinations thereof. A sweet combo is red / brown wire wrapped in tandem (one rib is red next one brown etc) or I've even tied #2's in red and added the worms "throax" in brown. Those work very well also.

[Tungsten]

I fish several different colors of san juans. Some are (much) better than red. *grin*

 

Blue isn't very good, though I have gotten fish on, blue, green, purple, brown, black, white (yes white), orange, yellow, and combinations thereof. A sweet combo is red / brown wire wrapped in tandem (one rib is red next one brown etc) or I've even tied #2's in red and added the worms "throax" in brown. Those work very well also.

Great tip Brian.Thanks ,got all sorts of ideas now.

[Harps]

Gary Borger has a great set of videos that talk about nymphing

 

One of them has some great shots of flies next to the naturals... I think the San Juan is in there...

worth checking out.

 

Part 1

http://www.hook.tv/player.php?key=6309B752797C7F2D

 

Part 2

http://www.hook.tv/player.php?key=330A58BFFCAFD5B9

 

(I think its part 2, but they're both good videos anyways)

[garyborger]

Birchy,

True enough, water does absorb light rays differentially. The actual appearance of the object depends upon the wavelengths being reflected. Deep red reflects the longest wavelengths and will be gone by about 1 meter down. By 2 meters down there’s basically no red light left. Even if a natural worm were red, it would appear gray to black at depth. Fluorescent colors, are a different matter. They retain their colors because they absorb light and re-emit it (fluoresce) at their specific color wavelength. Anglers fishing deep often use fluorescent colors to make the flies more attractive or noticeable.

 

Captrob,

I am a scientist (I have a Ph.D. in Biology). Yes, all but the deep-ocean fish do see in color. This allows them to differentiate prey against background space light. The differential absorption of light waves by water changes the color of the lures to various shades of gray as the depth increases. Fluorescent colors and shiny, metallic colors often do well at depth because they either retain their colors or reflect all colors.

 

Dune,

There’s a book titled, “What Fish See” by Dr. Colin Kageyyama (1999) that nicely discusses vision, light absorption by water, and so on. Colin holds a Doctor of Optometry degree and clearly understands color and its effects on fishing.

 

Tooloman,

Yes, the best approach is to match what you see, generally speaking. But sometimes fluorescent colors or differing shades of the natural’s color actually catch more fish. Perhaps they’re easier to see, perhaps they more closely match the natural at a particular depth. And so on.

 

Gary Borger

 

 

[Guest Dennis59]

The book you should read is Gary Borgers Presentation it goes through all this in great detail and explans how what & why a fish sees. I'm just in the processes of reading it. Very interesting read.

This book is where this articel came from.

Gray explains it very simply.

 

Tight Lines Always

Dennis S

[Harps]

I bought one of the limited editions of the book Presentation that Jason Borger had let us know about on Sexyloops.

Excellent book.

 

Gary Borger has had a huge influence on how I look at trout streams.

[jksnijders]

 

 

 

I noticed the visibility change drastically from about 5 meters down while diving. At 30 meters all you could see was more or less dull, no real colours to speak of, just shades. I kinda thought more about how lures might look underwater after that...

[Gil]

I started tying a deep crimson that I think works better than a bright red. Note: I use two flies randomizing thier positions to determine what works best when I'm evaluating new patterns.

[rusty]

Gary,

 

Wow! Thanks for dropping in here...it's a pleasure to hear your thoughts on the matter.

 

I would have to imagine that you've fished the Bow in your travels. What do you think of it?

 

Russ

[hydropsyche]

But sometimes fluorescent colors or differing shades of the natural’s color actually catch more fish. Perhaps they’re easier to see, perhaps they more closely match the natural at a particular depth. And so on.

 

Gary Borger

 

Do you, or anyone, have any comments on UV (ultra violet)? It seems flies I've tied with anything that has UV in it (ie: some ice dubbing) almost repels fish. Maybe I'm just imaging it. Do UV rays penetrate water?

[Harps]

There was a recent talk about UV hotspots on sexyloops that links to an article on Over my waders by Reed Curry.

 

It indicates that some inverts have UV spots, that trout may see...

I've had good luck mixing a touch of UV ice dub into most of my dubbing.