nick Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Hello everyone. I'm planning to have a sit-down with my MLA next month regarding the consistent neglect of management to our natural areas as far as uncontrolled OHV use and random camping is concerned. All this meeting is intended to do is to show situations and areas that will continue to deteriorate in both ambience and natural health if these forms of activities are left unchecked. With that in mind, I am asking for assistance with some visual aid material, namely digital photographs that can be shown during my conversation with my MLA, as well as any Environmental Dept. people I may see at another time. The pictures can come from any time in the more recent past, and please feel free to send pictures at any time in the future. What I would appreciate are any pictures showing irresponsible behavior by individuals, namely abuse of OHV use/access as well as random camping in inappropriate ways (ie. chaining off areas, building of walled structures, quad tracks up/down/through creeks, etc). I have some photo's of my own, but the more area's of the province that get covered, the more powerful the message. The same applies to the amount of people who participate by sending either photos and/or emails of support, to albertaforenvironment@yahoo.ca . I would appreciate any and all help from all of you, as it is all of our natural resources that need to get the protection. Please email questions to the email address above. Thank you for your help. Sincerely, Nick Sliwkanich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigbadbrent Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 I can tell you, Dutch Creek is going to be raped and pillaged this year...by closing certain areas it just pushes the yahoos elsewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j5ep00 Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 I just got back from mclean creek, we were out setting up camp... so far everything is looking pretty good out there. saw a few cops out already. we picked up a bag of garbage from the trees around the camp. must have been there from last year.. there were some fences put up around wetlands and creek areas. lets see if they last the weekend... anyways back on track here. are you looking to have random camping banned in the areas?? or are you looking for more enforcement to ensure people use the marked trails, pick up after them selfs and act like civil human beings? i will take some pictures this weekend... butt i dont think you should only be pointing out the bad. i hate seeing it trashed just as much as you... but by only showing one side is pretty bias. there are alot of responsible people that use these areas that follow ALL the rules. and they should not be punished having the areas taken away. i would say that there are a good 50 000 people that camp on crown land in southren alberta on long weekends... where would all these people go if the areas are shut down? i think you would be pretty hard pressed to find a camp ground with open spots any where south of red deer... will there be an alternative? maybe build controled camp sites in the area that make $$$ to go into the rehabilitation of the area? the waipiours area has cleaned up faily well since the ban on trucks last year.. i think with some proper managment of the other areas things will clean up... maybe instead of 2 grand for tickets they should be increased to 5 or more! anyways im beat and headed to bed, everyone have a great weekend and hopefully things go well! tightlines chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanJuanWorm Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Im a responsible OHV guy. I usually go out to mclean or waiprous. I rarely see rules being broken out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick Posted May 15, 2008 Author Share Posted May 15, 2008 I'm not looking for banning outright, or any other drastic move, only a set of regulated policies (similar to hunting and fishing regulations were things like random camping or OHV use is allowed, and other sensitive areas where it is either restricted to certain designated sites, or banned, just like hunting or fishing) with certain activities either allowed or not allowed in certain areas for certain reasons (obviously not based by me). All I'm pushing towards is preserving of the resource for everyone. I just need visual aids to focus the issue as a whole (like destroyed fences to keep OHV or campers out of riparian zones), then let the government try and deal with it. I would like to see education and actual information as a tool by the government and not just enforcement, even though we need more of that, too. I'm not trying to nail down OHV or random camping, as like everyone else, I've done a bit of both, but there is a difference between controlled legal activities and uncontrolled legal activities. Just remember there was once a time when 50 trout per day was seen as acceptable, even though we know now that with the amount of people fishing, we wouldn't have a fish left if we let that continue. Plain old eye sight can see the increase in use of the outdoors, and action needs to be taken now so we have something left. Nick Sliwkanich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ÜberFly Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 I'm not looking for banning outright, or any other drastic move, only a set of regulated policies (similar to hunting and fishing regulations were things like random camping or OHV use is allowed, and other sensitive areas where it is either restricted to certain designated sites, or banned, just like hunting or fishing) with certain activities either allowed or not allowed in certain areas for certain reasons (obviously not based by me). All I'm pushing towards is preserving of the resource for everyone. I just need visual aids to focus the issue as a whole (like destroyed fences to keep OHV or campers out of riparian zones), then let the government try and deal with it. I would like to see education and actual information as a tool by the government and not just enforcement, even though we need more of that, too. I'm not trying to nail down OHV or random camping, as like everyone else, I've done a bit of both, but there is a difference between controlled legal activities and uncontrolled legal activities. Just remember there was once a time when 50 trout per day was seen as acceptable, even though we know now that with the amount of people fishing, we wouldn't have a fish left if we let that continue. Plain old eye sight can see the increase in use of the outdoors, and action needs to be taken now so we have something left. Nick Sliwkanich Nick, I am a "Non OHV" guy and I always will be!! That being said, partnering with the OHV community is key here. As an example, a buddy of mine is the Parks Planner for Canmore and when the community and Land owners complained about an illegal mt. bike course (those kids sure put up a beautiful course), the first thing he did when he (they) proposed that the town build a course up at the nordic centre was get the kids involved that built the illegal course and they were key in designing the new (and legal) one, and since they actually had input and felt that they were part of the process, it worked out very well!! Same thing happened here with Millennium Park with the skateboards, they helped plan and design the park. Those bureaucrats like those sorts or partnerships & win-win scenarios!! Cheers! P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikefromsundre Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Good luck with your meeting. I'll try to get some shots of the chained areas. However, I am not real anxious to drive out west this weekend. Might get my daughter and her friends to take some for me. I'll keep my eyes open the rest of the year. Might be a good idea to go out next weekend and get some shots of the messes that are always out there. Years back the 4H voluteered to do a clean up after the long weekend at the bighorn staging area -they were completely overwhelmed and spent 2 solid days with a couple of dozen volunteers cleaning the area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wongrs Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Good for you Nick for taking it to your MLA. That's the democratic way. They say that 1 visit is worth 50 phone calls and 50 phone calls is worth 2500 emails or whatever the numbers are. I tried to meet with my MP while I was in Calgary a number of times (Jim Prentice, heard of that guy?). We'd make appointments with his helper person who would continually cancel last minute on us. It was awesome. Anyways, I don't have any photos for you but I would like to write you a short letter of support for your meeting with your MLA. It might help to show that you share the same views as others when it comes to this particular issue. It will be harder for your MLA to dismiss your concerns as 'from that wingnut guy that came in to see me that day'. If interested, please send me a PM. Perhaps others would do the same or put their name to a list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harps Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Get your MLA to take a tour with you on May-Long... or at least somebody from their office. The MLA of Ranchlands toured the Indian Graves area... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick Posted May 17, 2008 Author Share Posted May 17, 2008 bump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulltrout Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 personally, i hope that your meeting to have all random camping banned fails...i don't want to lose my canadian right to enjoy crown land as a result of a minority population that abuse the right...rather than trying to ban it, why not try to get more enforcement/licensing into effect...my two cents... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 I think random camping should cost money - this freeloading horsesh!t has got to stop. A meager $10/night would bring in enough money to hire people to enforce the rules and keep things civil out there. Banning random camping isn't the answer, but there's no way it can continue in this unsustainable fashion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRH Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 ...i don't want to lose my canadian right to enjoy crown land as a result of a minority population that abuse the right... Trouble is, drbull, that what you consider to be your Canadian right to enjoy crown land and someone else's view on the same thing could be polar opposites. What you might consider to be abuse might be simply exercising their Canadian right to enjoy crown land to someone else. A case in point. I was out west on crown land a couple of weeks ago, heard a horrendous ruckus and investigated. Four turbocharged quads were "playing" in a muskeg bottom. "Playing" is what they called it. They were running, full throttle, into the muskeg, mud flying and wheels churning, seeing who could go furthest before they got stuck. It was no longer a muskeg, it was a mud hole 250 feet long and 60 feet wide with all vegetation displaced and churned up. When I asked them what the "H" they were doing they just said they were "playing". When I pointed out all the damage they were causing they simply said, "we ain't hurtin' nothin'. It's just a bog". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulltrout Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Banning random camping isn't the answer amen...end of sermon in my books...i agree there should be regulations/fees/licensing but to ban is ridiculous...i'd gladly pay a couple hundred a year for a year's worth of random camping...sadly, people think that banning RC will stop all the abuse...not likely... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipper Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Trouble is, drbull, that what you consider to be your Canadian right to enjoy crown land and someone else's view on the same thing could be polar opposites. What you might consider to be abuse might be simply exercising their Canadian right to enjoy crown land to someone else. A case in point. I was out west on crown land a couple of weeks ago, heard a horrendous ruckus and investigated. Four turbocharged quads were "playing" in a muskeg bottom. "Playing" is what they called it. They were running, full throttle, into the muskeg, mud flying and wheels churning, seeing who could go furthest before they got stuck. It was no longer a muskeg, it was a mud hole 250 feet long and 60 feet wide with all vegetation displaced and churned up. When I asked them what the "H" they were doing they just said they were "playing". When I pointed out all the damage they were causing they simply said, "we ain't hurtin' nothin'. It's just a bog". And there lies the problem, what beauty belies the beholder in a bog to some..is a mud hole to others. I know the last time I was out west of "Pincher" in the Westcastle area I could not believe the OHV trails around the place. It was a little bit of a shock to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulltrout Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 how can that be a shock with Alberta's ever expanding population? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clyde Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 consistent neglect of management to our natural areas as far as uncontrolled rather than trying to ban it, why not try to get more enforcement/licensing into effect.. These 2 statements say it all for me seem the only solution that our government can come up with is to close every thing or make it into a park rather than enforcing the rule and regulation that are already in place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebc Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 I think random camping should cost money - this freeloading horsesh!t has got to stop. A meager $10/night would bring in enough money to hire people to enforce the rules and keep things civil out there. Banning random camping isn't the answer, but there's no way it can continue in this unsustainable fashion. Surprises me when people try to discuss a subject like this they fail to see the bigger picture. NEVER should we compromise our rights. Instead all flyfishers should be more organised and willing to report the yahoos that are causing the problems. Heck you do not have to leave it to a CO or RCMP - you can also file and information with the RCMP if you know who they are. And do not think just because people have to pay the problems will go away. They don't. Take a lesson from the Conservation Officers' approach. Their job would be impossible to do effectively were it not for them cultivating a rapport with user groups and key individuals willing to report offenses. That in fact is the sole way in which their Report a Poacher program has any success or respect - that of public involvement, including that of the land owners...involving them in this also pays a big longer term bonus. Just my two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sundancefisher Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Surprises me when people try to discuss a subject like this they fail to see the bigger picture. NEVER should we compromise our rights. Instead all flyfishers should be more organised and willing to report the yahoos that are causing the problems. Heck you do not have to leave it to a CO or RCMP - you can also file and information with the RCMP if you know who they are. And do not think just because people have to pay the problems will go away. They don't. Take a lesson from the Conservation Officers' approach. Their job would be impossible to do effectively were it not for them cultivating a rapport with user groups and key individuals willing to report offenses. That in fact is the sole way in which their Report a Poacher program has any success or respect - that of public involvement, including that of the land owners...involving them in this also pays a big longer term bonus. Just my two cents. Alberta's fishermen's lobby is so poor it doesn't really even exist. In some states the lobby is so strong that senators and congressmen have to respect them! How do we do that in Alberta? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMasson Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Alberta's fishermen's lobby is so poor it doesn't really even exist. In some states the lobby is so strong that senators and congressmen have to respect them! How do we do that in Alberta? First off, every member of this board should be a member of their local TU chapter. In the states, TU does a lot of lobbying and many of the chapters are very strong (both with members and with funds). Secondly, we all need to make an effort to get to public meetings that concern us. For example, the Western Sky Land Trust. I know a lady that is a big part of planning and evaulating the cumulative effects of many of the government's policies and she is involved in the Sky Land Trust proposal. The framework is supposed to be released next week and there is supposed to be opporotunity for public consultation until September. We all need to make the effort to get to these public meetings. I'm pretty sure that TU will be making an appearance at them, therefore all the members should be there as well. After reading the proposal we should all be writing or even speaking directly, to our MLA's about it (either positive or negative). This has direct bearing on this very issue. Harps made a post about it in the News and Discussions forum and there have only be 78 views? There are also a myriad of other smaller clubs and organizations that we should try and become members of and attend their functions. I know that people are busy and time is short but it is worth it in the long run. Plus, most of the gatherings involve fishing, so you can't go wrong. Now, I'm not the shining example of all this...I just renewed my TU membership after letting it slide for almost 3 years. I haven't really alloted the time to get out and talk and meet people for the past couple years. I plan on changing that this year. Kind of off topic but I'll say it anyways. TU in the states has an innitiative called "Back the Brookie". Awesome program with lots of support from the public and also from the government...both Federal and State levels. Why not try to develop a program like that with the Westslopes in Alberta and BC? When something that will effect the status of the native brookies on the east coast happens, there are local chapters from Maine to Georgia that are writing to senators and congressmen, having rallies, even making broadcasts on radio. That is literally hundreds of people bombarding the media and government at the same time. How can they not be noticed and taken seriously? If something happens that you don't like, then you need to make that fact known. You can't sit at home and complain about it if you're not prepared to do something about it. Social action is a necessary (and often lacking) part of a democracy. Dr.Bull, I don't believe the original intent of the original post was to have random camping banned but perhaps, regulated and enforced more. I would not support a random camping ban but I definitely support more enforcement and also paying a fee to be allowed to camp. James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xplorer Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Hey Guys, I am an Atv'er and a fisherman. I applaude the op for his effort on this concern. There are many Atv and Offroad groups that are trying for the same goal. With that goal being, limiting uncontrolled atv/off road use and the random camping craziness that occurs mostly on the long weekends. I watched the Global and CTV news tonight to see the stories on Mclean Creek, the news was better than last year but still far too many alcohol related tickets. One officer even mentioned a couple of times that the alcohol offences were the primary problem. I also saw in the video clips the many young people that were there just to party with no offroad vehicle in sight. This worries me that the Atv and offroad groups get unfairly blamed for all the damage. Now before anybody jumps all over that last statement, I know that many yahoos out there with trucks, quads, bikes or whatever do stupid stuff too and many of you have seen it. I just feel that the party attitude is part of the problem. There are Atv and Offroad groups out there that are building bridges, putting up fences, educating users, working with ASRD and more to improve the situation. I am starting to see improvement in user education but still so many people to reach. I will not support the closures of areas to Atv access or Random camping. I understand that you want to use the Crown land for your recreation in your way, but we all have different ideas how to use that land. I am for sustainable use of the land that includes Atv's, Horses, Mountain bikes, Hikers, Fishermen or whatever your your preferred method of recreation. I will not support abuse of the land either but what would be the point of banning an entire user group when only a percentage are abusers of the priveledge? I do not have any pictures that would help your cause and if I did I am not sure if I would give them up. There are places where pictures of atv tracks entering a creek and leaving the other side are completely legal, due to it being a designated trail and creek crossing. I am not supporting driving up and down the creek,washing in the creek or any of that other crap that goes on. Sometimes we have to cross a creek if there is no bridge to use and it is what it is. I avoid crossing a creek unless there is no other alternative. I don't know if picture taking of users violating the rules is of much use, how do you prove where it is, or if its a designated trail or not? I would like to see more officers in the field to enforce the rules and laws. Even the report a poacher program requires the officer to catch the offender in the act. This is how I thought that program worked but may be wrong on that. Sorry for the long post Cya Lance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigbadbrent Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Even the report a poacher program requires the officer to catch the offender in the act. Not quite, if you get enough evidence (aka, licence number etc etc) and are willing to testify in court, they will charge the offender (my buddy did it a few weeks ago) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Lance, Thanks for the post - the tone was not confrontational and I really appreciate that. On the topic of creek crossings, though, I have to ask - doesn't it concern you that a quads crossing a creek can cause a massive amount of ecological damage? What about the silt and mud deposited in the creek, the erosion caused in many cases going up and down the bank, especially when it's wet, or the potentially toxic chemicals from lubricants, oils, and unburned fuel? Especially when these streams are small, the impact can be significant. If you don't feel the same, I recommend that you go fish Waiparous Creek well above the impacted area and then do the same well below. I know that, like every other sport out there, it's the 5% idiots that are ruining it for the 95% responsible users. Having said that, the 5% in the ATV crowd is doing a lot of damage to everyone's property and generally not taking care of what many Albertans feel is the best part of Alberta. I am as against random large scale camping for fishing or hiking as I am against doing so for ATVing. I just don't understand why people are allowed to squat on public land and we can't afford proper enforcement of the things that will make sure future Albertans will get have the same experience we did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryH Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 The key word for me in this discussion is "sustainable" and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that the way the wilderness is being used in SW Alberta is not sustainable. I think most of us on this board want the same result -- maintaining the beautiful wilderness that is such an important part of our lives and which we hope will be available for our children and our children's children etc. Sadly, what might have worked 50 years ago, maybe 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago, is absolutely not going to work now -- so get over it -- there MUST be major controls on ATV's and random camping or the areas that we enjoy so much will be destroyed -- it's simply a matter of numbers. The reality is that the population of this province is at a level where we simply cannot allow everyone to do want they "want" or what they "have always done." Those of us who have been around for a few years have seen a lot of change happen in our lifetimes, and if you extrapolate things maybe 50 or a 100 years, the picture doesn't look good. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ÜberFly Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 The key word for me in this discussion is "sustainable" and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that the way the wilderness is being used in SW Alberta is not sustainable. I think most of us on this board want the same result -- maintaining the beautiful wilderness that is such an important part of our lives and which we hope will be available for our children and our children's children etc. Sadly, what might have worked 50 years ago, maybe 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago, is absolutely not going to work now -- so get over it -- there MUST be major controls on ATV's and random camping or the areas that we enjoy so much will be destroyed -- it's simply a matter of numbers. The reality is that the population of this province is at a level where we simply cannot allow everyone to do want they "want" or what they "have always done." Those of us who have been around for a few years have seen a lot of change happen in our lifetimes, and if you extrapolate things maybe 50 or a 100 years, the picture doesn't look good. Terry Amen, brother! P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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