Draft South Saskatchewan Regional Plan

[TerryH]

The next draft has just been released. There's a lot to read, and I haven't waded through it yet. It will be interesting to see how issues like quadding, random camping, logging etc. are addressed. It's available online at

 

https://landuse.alberta.ca/LandUse%20Documents/SSRP%20Draft%20SSRP%202014-2024_2013-10-10.pdf

[albertatrout]

I just finished going through, its going to be very very controversial. Lots of new Wildland Parks (which I approve of) but still some relatively large areas with vague objectives. The Castle Wildland park is in there, that's huge news. I expect to hear a lot of screaming and whining from the quad clubs in short order, they stand to loose a lot of access (about time in my humble opinion). There is more public consultation coming up so have your voices heard. I was hoping to see mention of some form of levy on ATV's to pay for maintenance/ environmental degradation in the area.

[BBBrownie]

Will the Castle wildland park even address anything? My understanding is that it is restricted to high elevations, basically the alpine (above treeline) is protected, with a continued allowance for resource extraction and "targeted" forestry in the valleys. The old bait and switch. We shouldn't settle for this as it is all window dressing, no substance at all.

[albertatrout]

Will the Castle wildland park even address anything? My understanding is that it is restricted to high elevations, basically the alpine (above treeline) is protected, with a continued allowance for resource extraction and "targeted" forestry in the valleys. The old bait and switch. We shouldn't settle for this as it is all window dressing, no substance at all.

I think the status would address the majority of the issue. They are discussing a much bigger Wildland park than most would of thought possible. I spend a lot of time in Wildland Parks, its a good level of protection from a watershed point of view.

[BBBrownie]

yeah, but it is confined to high elevations. Above the forestry, above the atvs, so how is it even touching on the issue. I am very familiar with the "wild land park" designation and agree a wildland would be great to address some of the Castle issues, however, it is the location of the wild land, which is proposed to protect less than half the castle area, and confined to areas above the tree line that is an issue. This will only protect those portions that have no current resource value.

[trailhead]

I have run into ATV's & motorbikes and in one case even some Jeeps in a couple of different areas above treeline, so it will help there. But you are right it leaves a lot to be desired. The Conservatives don't want to upset the potential voting public, and a great majority of people ATV. It is actually not only impacting the Castle area, my brother lives on an acreage just outside of Edmonton. There have been numerous instances of ATVers cutting fences, tearing up private property and racing up and down trails and roads where they are acting illegally. So due to that percentage of the population I don't think we will see a changing of regulations. As with most things it will take a major disaster type of issue to cause a change to happen.

[angler]

Trailhead; where did the stat that 'a great majority of people ATV.' come from? I know it sure seems that way. From my visits to Racehorse, Oldman, Liv over the past years I 'believe' that 'everybody atv's'. I only personally know three people who even own an atv and NONE of them go 'recreational riding' - used only for hunting.They should be allowed only in designated areas.

 

The plan states explicitly that there will be no changes to random camping. I sure as hell wish 'the rules' were effectively and meaningfully enforced. I mentioned THAT many times in my response to ASRD.

The plan will be watered down a bunch more before it sees any enactment.

[trailhead]

I remember reading when Ted Morton was in the legislature that ATV numbers had increased by four times, I think that was from 2001 to 2007. I do know that between 2005 and 2013 there were about 130000 ATV's purchased in Alberta and about 120000 off road dirt bikes. Good illustration of user mentality in my family the one brother hates the ATV's and my other brother, who has a dirt bike, thinks there isn't a problem.

[albertatrout]

Push back from the ATV lobby, hope it doesn't get significant traction. I was down in the Racehorse Creek area recently and I see the floods this spring opened up many more valley's to ATV destruction, they are taking full advantage.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/conservation-plan-for-southern-alberta-worries-4x4-enthusiasts-1.2430525

[pepper]

 

Our Watershed - The Next 50 Years

There are only 24 hours left to influence the blueprint for future land-use in southern Alberta.

You have until January 15th to make your voice heard!

What can you do at this very last minute? Get some ideas from a special news update we sent out night.

Click this link: http://conta.cc/1ftsg8E

 

 

[albertatrout]

Make sure everyone gets their voices heard. The workbook does not take long and the ATV lobby has a disproportionate amount of influence at this point. I am also very concerned about the wording of public lands management as it basically leaves it wide open to selling our public lands and expanding irrigation/ water use.

 

Here are a few pictures taken this fall (north of the SSR area but you get the point). The creek adjacent to these shots is a known Bull Trout spawning creek. The small stream with a trail up it had Bull Trout spawning in it last year, picture was taken at lower than normal flows but the impact is obvious. This trail used to be used predominantly by hikers, fisherman and hunters on foot. Almost all damage has occurred in the past few years. Fishing is no longer allowed in this creek, but ATV's still have free reign. Same story in the west-slope of southwestern Alberta, get your voices heard.

 

[BurningChrome]

The off road lobby are actually the people you want to work with, not against. What we're lobbying for is responsible trail use in designated areas. If the SSRP bans all motorized off road use the guys that are out there doing illegal things aren't going to change their behaviour. I'm not an ATV rider or dirt biker, but I do have a 4x4 that I originally bought as a fishing vehicle that I also take off road. I'm not a mud bogger, I don't drive up and down rivers, and neither do other responsible off roaders. I subscribe to Tread Lightly! principles and pick up garbage on the trail when I'm out and leave nothing of my own behind. I'm part of a group of off roaders trying to get some feedback into the SSRP so that all off roaders can enjoy the backcountry responsibly by having to pay for courses and tags with the money going into a DAO (like fishing licenses do) that will fund better enforcement. We are already working with groups like the Ghost Watershed Alliance Society to build bridges over cutthroat creeks in Waiparous so nobody drives through them.

 

Here's a high level of the 5 E's approach we're proposing:

Experience – Master trail planning that incorporates ecological, social and trail sustainability while providing the Experience Albertan’s desire.

Engineering – Budget and Implementation capability to create sustainable trails, not just re-use unsustainable existing linear disturbances.

Education – Ensure users know what to expect, what to do, and their responsibilities on the trails.

Enforcement – Use enforcement to ensure user compliance with the plan.

Evaluation – Continuously improve the plan.

 

I'm both a fly fisher and an off roader and I don't think the two things have to be at odds. Some people on this site like maxwell, rickr, jdangler, bhurt, dhurst, bcube, harps, and all the staff at Fish Tales know me (but maybe not this username) and most have fished with me and know I'm passionate about the future of our fisheries. Internet forums don't lend themselves to rational discussions (just go look at some of the locked threads around here) but I'll be at the Fly Fishing Expo on Saturday if anyone wants more info or to discuss this in person. Shoot me a pm and we can arrange to meet up at the show.

[BurningChrome]

 

There are only 24 hours left to influence the blueprint for future land-use in southern Alberta.

 

You have until January 15th to make your voice heard!

 

The deadline for the workbooks was actually extended to February 28th.

 

https://www.landuse.alberta.ca/Pages/default.aspx

[albertatrout]

I'm not a mud bogger, I don't drive up and down rivers, and neither do other responsible off roaders.

 

I think responsible off roaders are a minority at this point, must be a few out there but they are rarely encountered. I own a couple ATV's which get used at our farm and occasionally for work on public lands. I would love to see all ATV users on public land pay a $200-$300 a year fee to ride with funds going to repair the damage and build proper trails; additionally there should be seasons (like fishing and hunting) where no use is permitted, like during the spring when trails are wet and ungulates are calving. The quad lobby is well managed and funded, I'm just hoping some change comes with the SSRP so I encourage all Albertans to get a workbook filled out.

 

Id be more than willing to pay the fee for the 2 or 3 days a year I operate a ATV on public lands (and I generally use it on non-maintained roads just to save my truck wear and tear). The vast majority of quaders I know have the "we pay taxes" or the "its my God given right" attitude on public land and the landscape shows it. Many trails need to be reclaimed and changed to foot access only, I don't think an all out ban is going to happen but tight control is needed.

 

Good luck in your endeavors, hopefully you can help with positive change.

[BurningChrome]

I think responsible off roaders are a minority at this point, must be a few out there but they are rarely encountered.

That's equivalent to someone seeing a few fishermen on closed water or keeping fish over their limit and saying that responsible fishermen are a minority. The reason you don't encounter us is that we are all off roading where it's permitted and not blasting all around hell's half acre. What we're hoping to do with our input to the SSRP is to convert others into responsible off roaders through education and funding better enforcement for those who refuse.

I would love to see all ATV users on public land pay a $200-$300 a year fee to ride with funds going to repair the damage and build proper trails;

User fees along those lines are exactly what we're pushing for along with courses. A guy going out and buying a quad then just heading out there is similar to someone buying a rod and reel at Canadian Tire along with a container of worms then heading down to Fish Creek Park. How many times have we as fly fishers wished that there was some education component to prevent this sort of thing?

additionally there should be seasons (like fishing and hunting) where no use is permitted, like during the spring when trails are wet and ungulates are calving.

Agree with this 100%. There are already some restrictions in place, for example there are trails in Waiparous that are closed in the fall because of Bull Trout spawning streams in the area and McLean Creek is closed from Dec. 1 to May 1. The group I belong to pretty much does not go on the trails in May and June because they're too saturated. Knowledgeable off roaders know that mud and water cause tons of damage to vehicles therefore avoid them whenever possible without going off the designated trail.

The quad lobby is well managed and funded, I'm just hoping some change comes with the SSRP so I encourage all Albertans to get a workbook filled out.

They are well funded because Suzuki, Yamaha, etc. give them money. Without trails to ride on those companies stand to lose money. What we all need is positive, well-managed change. Outright bans don't work as we've already seen with so many other things in the past. We need to stop people from riding illegally by giving them more appealing legal alternatives. We hope that those who fill out the workbooks will realize this is the better way. Just look at places like Moab, the Rubicon, and even the snowmobile trails in Ontario. That's the sort of thing we need here. The people I've spoken to at ESRD and the Land Use Secretariat have agreed that this would be a good idea.

The vast majority of quaders I know have the "we pay taxes" or the "its my God given right" attitude on public land and the landscape shows it.

Sadly I think this is the new attitude about a lot of things in Alberta. Not saying it's right, but it isn't just quad riders.

Many trails need to be reclaimed and changed to foot access only, I don't think an all out ban is going to happen but tight control is needed.

I agree a lot of trails should be reclaimed and hopefully the reclaimed trails will be replaced by better trails designed with sustainability in mind - rocky trails rather than dirt trails that turn into mud bogs every year. The problem is that right now the "designated" trails are what's called an "existing linear disturbance" ie. roads that were put in by logging and O&G then decommissioned. Those weren't designed with any sustainability in mind and often run through or near sensitive land. That's all that we're allowed to use under the current access management plans and they don't have the ability to open any new trails, only close existing ones.

Good luck in your endeavors, hopefully you can help with positive change.

Thanks! Hopefully we can help dispel some of the stereotypes people have and get some fly fishers to come out the next time we're building a bridge to help protect the cutts and bulls. The creek we're working on is also part of the stewardship program for brookie bonking.

[ÜberFly]

Unfortunately you and your friends are the minority!! The magority are complacent and may or may not be as respectful and then there are the disrespectful minority that ruin it for everyone. I think it's this particular group that the "responsible" minority of off road enthusiasts need to engage with, as upposed to the non off-road community as there will inevitably be too many conflicts and too much animosity!

 

The off road lobby are actually the people you want to work with, not against. What we're lobbying for is responsible trail use in designated areas. If the SSRP bans all motorized off road use the guys that are out there doing illegal things aren't going to change their behaviour. I'm not an ATV rider or dirt biker, but I do have a 4x4 that I originally bought as a fishing vehicle that I also take off road. I'm not a mud bogger, I don't drive up and down rivers, and neither do other responsible off roaders. I subscribe to Tread Lightly! principles and pick up garbage on the trail when I'm out and leave nothing of my own behind. I'm part of a group of off roaders trying to get some feedback into the SSRP so that all off roaders can enjoy the backcountry responsibly by having to pay for courses and tags with the money going into a DAO (like fishing licenses do) that will fund better enforcement. We are already working with groups like the Ghost Watershed Alliance Society to build bridges over cutthroat creeks in Waiparous so nobody drives through them.

 

Here's a high level of the 5 E's approach we're proposing:

Experience – Master trail planning that incorporates ecological, social and trail sustainability while providing the Experience Albertan’s desire.

Engineering – Budget and Implementation capability to create sustainable trails, not just re-use unsustainable existing linear disturbances.

Education – Ensure users know what to expect, what to do, and their responsibilities on the trails.

Enforcement – Use enforcement to ensure user compliance with the plan.

Evaluation – Continuously improve the plan.

 

I'm both a fly fisher and an off roader and I don't think the two things have to be at odds. Some people on this site like maxwell, rickr, jdangler, bhurt, dhurst, bcube, harps, and all the staff at Fish Tales know me (but maybe not this username) and most have fished with me and know I'm passionate about the future of our fisheries. Internet forums don't lend themselves to rational discussions (just go look at some of the locked threads around here) but I'll be at the Fly Fishing Expo on Saturday if anyone wants more info or to discuss this in person. Shoot me a pm and we can arrange to meet up at the show.

[BurningChrome]

Unfortunately you and your friends are the minority!! The magority are complacent and may or may not be as respectful and then there are the disrespectful minority that ruin it for everyone. I think it's this particular group that the "responsible" minority of off road enthusiasts need to engage with, as upposed to the non off-road community as there will inevitably be too many conflicts and too much animosity!

Hi Peter,

 

I'm not sure how you feel that we're the minority and that the majority are complacent and disrespectful. Our group actually represents somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1000 4x4 drivers from southern Alberta. Whenever we see guys on the trail who are bogging, driving through closed/sensitive areas, or driving through rivers we stop and let them know what they're doing is illegal and why. Some didn't know any better and to be honest, others knew and didn't care. That's why our plan includes enforcement and education.

 

We are engaging with the irresponsible and/or uninformed off road enthusiasts, but we also want to let other backcountry users know that we are on the same side. Most of us bought our trucks to get us to other self-propelled activities like fishing, backcountry skiing, mountain biking, climbing, and camping. Because of that, we also have an interest in keeping the backcountry clean and beautiful. Some of our members already engaged members of the local climbing communities and I felt it would be a good thing to reach out to the fly fishing community. We're all backcountry users so let's work together to improve things so we can all enjoy it legally and respectfully in our own ways without stepping on each other.

 

Like I said, I'll be at the expo on Saturday if anyone wants to discuss this face to face or you're welcome to attend one of our meetings as some of the climbers did. Send me a pm and we can arrange something.

[ÜberFly]

Good to see you Marc (welcome back to FFC - sorry to see you go again)!

 

Thanks for stopping by the booth, you shared some good insight and your off roading group has done some good work!

 

Cheers!

 

Peter

[Vagabond]

Great,just what I need,yet another Safety Sally course.